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tors, a colonel, and many others. This priest states, that he remonstrated against a rate of 6s. an acre, afterwards 12s. an acre, levied on his Roman Catholic flock for building a chapel. Now, at the same time, it appears by the returns before the House, that the cess by law for the church rate of the same parish was only 1d. Which was the grievance of the people, the rate of 1d. or the rate of 6s, or 12s.? Among the cases brought forward by the right hon. baronet to which, in opening, he had referred, there was one which he had only slightly noticed on this occasion, but on which he had debated before; and which had been made the subject of profligate levity in another place; he meant the expenses of the consecrated elements; but the delicacy of this subject was such, that, unless it should be introduced more at large, he would only say, that he was prepared to meet, and in a degree, if not entirely, explain the cases to which the right hon. baronet referred. The right hon. baronet had complained, that his bill had been deprived of all its virtue in the other House of parliament; and he seemed to wonder what possible objection could be found to a remedy so simple, as that which he had proposed, namely, submitting the control of the expenditure of the church rates to the quarter sessions. Now this was the vital part of the right hon. baronet's bill, and to which the strongest objections might reasonably be applied. It took from the existing authority, which was not only Protestant, but hierarchically Protestant, the control and expenditure of monies raised for the support of the ecclesiastical establishments of the country, and placed it in hands, which might be Roman Catholic, which might be Latitudinarian. If the bill of his right hon. friend, the secretary for Ireland, should contain any such provision, he feared (and he said it with the greatest regret) it would not be in his power to support it. The details of the items which had been mentioned were trivial; but the inferences drawn from them were not trivial. He considered that the inferences drawn by the right hon. baronet's measure would degrade the church establishment, and weaken its claims to the respect and affectionate gratitude of the people; and such measures, at all times, and in every place, he would resist.

Sir H. Parnell adverted to the reformation which had been made, under the present Irish government, with respect to

the magistracy. Though he did not disapprove of that reformation as far as it went, yet it might be carried further. He had, in a former session, thrown out a suggestion, which, if adopted, would have a good effect in Ireland. He meant, that of appointing lords-lieutenant of coun. ties, in the same manner as they were appointed in England. This suggestion had met the approval of the late lord Londonderry; but nothing had been since done with respect to it. The evidence before the committee of last year went to prove, that great abuses existed in the appointment of corporation magistrates, and he hoped that some regulations would be made on this subject. He understood that some improvement was intended with respect to the office of sub-sheriff, by the appointment of an officer in each county, to whom was to be intrusted the service of writs. This, he thought, would be a dangerous innovation; and he hoped the House would pause before they adopted any measure interfering with the duties of so old an office as that of sheriff. He was glad to hear that some amendment was intended in the laws respecting landlord and tenant, and he hoped that the amend ment would remove the evil of sub-letting, and also the system of levying distress, and of ejectment, in which great abuses existed. There were some other points on which he thought the interference of the legislature would be a great benefit to Ireland; but as he did not know what course it was proposed to adopt with respect to them, he should be glad of information from the Attorney general for Ireland. He should wish to know, whether it was intended to extend to that country, the provisions of the bill passed last session for the regulation of juries. That bill was a most excellent measure, and he did not see why Ireland should not have the benefit of it. He wished also to know, whether the bankrupt laws, as they existed in this country, were to be made applicable to Ireland? The trade of the two countries was now placed on the same footing, and he thought the same system might be made applicable to both. There were also some acts of George 2nd on the subject of banking, the repeal of which would be considered of service to Ireland.

Mr. Plunkett said, he was disposed to give the right hon. baronet every information in his power. With respect to the bankrupt laws, he had consulted with the courts in Ireland, with the Lord

bankrupt laws of England, which was passed last session. It would, of course, require considerable alterations to render it applicable to Ireland; but, after it had been modified, he had no doubt that it would be found serviceable in that country. He was preparing a bill relating to the law of landlord and tenant in Ireland, similar to the excellent bill which prevailed in England on the like subject, and which bill would, he conceived, remedy several abuses, and especially the one of double distress. In his opinion, the returns which had been read by the hon. member for Dundalk, clearly proved that there was no want of liberality on the part of the Protestants of Ireland towards the Catho

fore, that the only purpose which the right hon. baronet could answer by pressing his present resolution, would be that of evincing anger for the past, and not of effecting a remedy for the future. The right hon. baronet's complaint was not as to the amount of the rates which were levied, but as to the manner in which they were levied; but it should be recollected, that if any rates were illegally levied, there was a proper tribunal in that country to which an appeal might be addressed for a remedy, if the application were made in due time.

Chancellor, and the Master of the Rolls there, and the result was, a conviction that it would be inexpedient to apply the bankrupt laws, as they now existed in this country, to Ireland. As to the bill for regulating juries in this country, which had been introduced in the last session, and the introduction of which had done so much credit to his right hon. friend (Mr. Peel), he thought it would not be expedient to make it applicable to Ireland. It would be sufficient to say, that the basis of that bill consisted of returns of jurors made by overseers of the poor and churchwardens. Now, in Ireland they had no overseers of the poor, and he hoped they would long continue without them; and, as to the returns made by church-lics of that country. He conceived, therewardens, he thought the hon. baronet himself would not like to see returns of jurors made by men holding an office from which Roman Catholics were excluded. There were other parts of the bill which would be inapplicable to Ireland. It would therefore be better to watch the operation of the bill here, and then see what part of it could be made applicable to Ireland. On the subject of the reforms made in the magistracy, the hon, baronet had not suggested any thing, nor was any new measure in the contemplation of the Irish government. Since that reformation had been made, he had not heard any complaints on the subject; which, on inquiry, proved to be wellfounded. There was one complaint made of the conduct of a learned lord in whose department the appointment of magistrates rested, that he had neglected to attend to a very serious charge against a magistrate; that charge, it was said, was, that the magistrate had been guilty of most oppressive and illegal conduct that the names of the parties were given, but that no inquiry was made, and that the magistrate was continued in the commission. Now, the facts of the case were, that an inquiry had been instituted into the conduct of the magistrate, and that the whole charge, from beginning to end, was altogether without foundation. He had selected this one instance for the purpose of showing the light ground on which charges respecting the magistracy of Ireland were put forth. He would also take that opportunity of informing the hon. baronet, that he had at present under his consideration a bill for extending to Ireland some of the material provisions contained in the very valuable act for amending the VOL. XIV.

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Mr. Abercromby said, he wished to make a few observations on that part of the right hon. and learned gentleman's speech wherein he informed the House that he purposed conferring a great boon on Ireland, by extending the statute recently passed for amending the bankrupt laws here to that country. Now, he did not mean to say that that statute might not contain some useful provisions, but he believed those who praised it most were the members of the profession to which he had the honour to belong, and who had most profited by it. It had also been much lauded, and for a similar reason by the commissioners of bankrupts; but he felt it his duty to say, that he considered this enactment much more calculated to cause useless expense than to promote the interests of those who might have the misfortune to come under its operation; indeed he was somewhat surprised that no notice had as yet been given of bringing in a bill to remedy the defects which had been found to exist in that statute. He did not consider the objection which had been raised by the right hon. and learned gentleman to in

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troducing the jury-bill into Ireland ; | nant in Ireland; for the parliament being namely, that there were no overseers here, those who would be fitted for the of the poor in that country, at all tenable, office, must necessarily spend the greater for there was no necessity that this portion of the year in this country. In measure should be carried into effect in the course of the session he meant to inIreland in precisely the same way that it troduce a bill for the purpose of conwas carried into effect in England. There solidating the laws of both countries, with could be no objection to conferring on respect to theft. With respect to the Ireland what was good in that measure, general question, if the right hon. baronet though it might have to flow through wished to record his own opinions, of other channels. course it was competent for him to place the resolutions on the Journals; but it was rather an unusual course, when a bill was about to be introduced, to propose resolutions to the same effect.

Mr. Grattan was of opinion, that the statement of the Attorney-general for Ireland had been quite gratifying, and hoped the resolution would be withdrawn. There had certainly been some most extraordinary instances of abuse. The evil was one of great magnitude, and the cause of its continuance was the want of some active resident individuals, who would expose abuses when they were committed. What would be most advantageous for Ireland would be, to devise some plan for the education of the peasantry. He had last session had the honour of proposing a measure for this purpose to the House, and he had been happy to hear a noble lord in the other House approve of that measure. Hon. gentlemen ought to be friendly to any plan which went to render the lower classes in Ireland more intelligent, and thereby prevent their emigrating in such numbers to this country, as to create a serious addition to the poor-rates.

Mr. Secretary Peel said, that the learned gentleman laboured under a mistake in supposing that his right hon. friend, the Attorney-general for Ireland, had expressed an opinion, that it was impossible to introduce into Ireland a measure of a similar tendency to that which he had the honour of submitting to parliament last session. Nothing would give him more pain than to find that that measure could not be applied to Ireland. Even something more beneficial might be done, than merely to consolidate the laws. Since he had entered the House, he had received from an hon. friend near him a remonstrance as to the operation of the bill, which gave him much satisfaction. His hon. friend had complained, that, such was the unfortunate operation of the measure, he had been actually summoned to serve on two special juries. Now, he was rejoiced to find, that in the working of this bill, all men, without distinction, were compelled to perform their duties to the public; and in this summons he found some information which might be usefully applied to Ireland; namely, that the parties would be fined for non-attendance, unless they made a reasonable excuse, and that the judges would be in court at ten o'clock. It would be well that the bill for Ireland should not follow too closely on the heels of the other; for, in the connecting of a bill which repealed seventy or eighty acts, imperfections would creep in, which, perhaps, one or two assizes would point out. The hon. baronet opposite had made some allusions to the ap- Mr. Hutchinson quite concurred with pointment of lords lieutenants to counties his hon. friend, that the attention of in Ireland. Nothing, certainly, could be members ought to be directed to the better in principle, than that there should condition of the poor of Ireland. He, be gradations between the chief magis- of course, did not mean to suggest trate and the most subordinate authorities. any plan-certainly not the poor laws But then the amount of the benefit must of England, at least not as they were depend on the manner in which the du-abused. Such was the condition of the ties of the office should be executed. It might be made the greatest curse in individual counties; and he feared it would not be easy to find resident lords lieute

Mr. Plunkett disclaimed the idea of having said, that there was any inclination on his part not to extend the provisions of the jury-bill to Ireland, when a fit opportunity should arise. All he had said was, that the machinery of the bill, in its present state, was inapplicable to Ireland; but that, when experience had proved its utility, he should rejoice to see it adopted.

peasantry of Ireland, in the south and western parts, as to call for the immediate attention of parliament. He had wit nessed a greater degree of misery and

degradation there, than he hoped, for the sake of humanity, existed in any other portion of the world. His right hon. friend, the member for Waterford, had done so many acts to entitle him to the lasting gratitude of his countrymen, that it would be useless to repeat them. Much of the benefits of the measures in progression and promise, were attributable to the indefatigable exertions of his right hon. friend; and he now proposed this resolution with a view to record his opinions on the subject. The condition of the country was such as to excite the deepest affliction. He would put it to the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs, whether he slept on a bed of roses, when they saw events taking place every day tending to convulse the empire; when the duke of Wellington had departed for Russia, on a mission which no one could tell how it might terminate? Suppose the autocrat should turn a deaf ear to the arguments of that illustrious personage; or any other event should occur to break the peace of Europe, could the ministers, in such case, feel so secure as to say to foreign powers, "Do what you please, we are invulnerable?" If, in addition to our pecuniary difficulties, we had also the discontents of Ireland to allay, how fearfully would our dangers be increased! He was unwilling to break the harmony of the House, but it was his duty to speak out; and he would say, that the ministers would not discharge their duty unless they consolidated all the interests of the empire, and extended their excellent plans to every corner of it.

country previous to the reign of Elizabeth? They at that period were much in the same condition in which they now were in Ireland-sturdy beggars, wandering over the country, plundering when they could, and when they could not plunder, living on their more industrious relatives. It was only by a good system of poorlaws that mendicity could be put down in Ireland. There were no other means of preserving the peace of the country, and of producing, in the lawless hordes that wandered about as mendicants and beggars, habits of order and industry.

Mr. R. Martin said, he would give his cordial assent to the proposition of the Attorney-general for Ireland; and he had no doubt that the measure he announced would prove as beneficial as any which that learned person had conferred on Ireland. His assent to the introduction of the bill, however, by no means prevented his voting for the proposition of the right hon. baronet. He gave entire credit to the statements laid before the House by that right hon. baronet; and could confidently declare, that nothing would be more likely to create great dissatisfaction in Ireland than a rejection of the resolutions. They were, indeed, so closely connected with the measure of the Attorneygeneral for Ireland, that they might almost form the preamble of his bill. He did not think it advisable to introduce the poorrates into Ireland, but he thought something ought to be done for the poor of that country, and that no person was so fit for introducing a measure of relief as the son of the lamented Henry Grattan, who used to say, that "every naked man was an armed host."

Mr. Monck said, that every person examined on the subject of the poor-laws, as applied to Ireland, was favourable to Sir John Newport in reply, observed, the experiment. Mr. Nimmo had stated that his object was to get the resolutions to the committee; that there were a mil-placed on the Journals. Within the last lion mendicants and sturdy beggars, who few years, he had over and over again were wandering over the country, and been opposed on various questions by who, when unable to obtain a living by ministers; and, though his recommenda the offerings of charity or the plunder they tion had been slighted, or wholly disrecontinued to carry off in their lawless wan-garded, yet, by getting his resolutions derings, resorted to their poorer but more industrious relatives, and extorted from them a portion of their hard earnings. Great objections had been made to the introduction of the poor-laws into Ireland, from the evils they had led to in this country. But, whatever those evils might be, they had not originated so much in the system of the laws as from the mode in which they were administered. What had been the state of the poor in this

placed on the Journals, he had often had the satisfaction of seeing measures which had been contemptuously rejected in one year, adopted the very next. With the hope of a similar result, he would now press his motion. He denied the imputations thrown out against him by the hon. member for Dundalk, of either acting from sinister motives, or of having selected particular cases. He had no hostility to the Established Church; his ob

ject was, to befriend and support it, by removing those evils which warred against its security. He never could, however, agree to place the sole control of the church rates in the hands of the hierarchy, without subjecting them to the interference of other portions of the community; and he was happy to hear that there was no intention of introducing any bill to that effect.

Sir R. Inglis explained. His objections had reference to an attempt of some persons to place the control of the churchrate in a lay tribunal.

The resolutions were negatived without a division; and the amendment agreed

to.

TOLLS AND CUSTOMS AT FAIRS AND MARKETS IN IRELAND.] Mr. Spring Rice, after a few observations respecting the evils to which the present system of collecting Tolls and Customs in Ireland gave rise, moved for the purpose of remedying those evils, "That an humble address be presented to his majesty, praying that he would be graciously pleased to give directions that a commission should issue to inquire into the Tolls and Customs collected in Fairs, Markets, and Sea Ports in Ireland."

Mr. Goulburn said, that the hon. gentleman was under a misapprehension as to an intention on the part of government to protect or support any abuses in the collection of the tolls or customs of Ireland. On the contrary, if extensive evils did exist, and he would not deny that there were some, government would be disposed to remedy them. Indeed, he had assured the hon. gentleman, at the commencement of the session, when he was apprized of his intention to make this motion, that the subject had not escaped the notice of the Irish government, and that he was unwilling to preclude any inquiry that might lead to practical benefit. At the same time, the subject was surrounded with difficulty. There were in Ireland, as there were in this country, many markets and towns invested by royal prerogative, with a right of levying certain tolls and duties. Now, that was a right with which the legislature ought to be cautious in interfering. Wherever duties, even moderate duties, were levied, it could not be denied, that those duties operated as a tax upon the commodities of whatever town or market these commodities were brought into to be disposed of. So far they

The effect of these

were, therefore, a restraint upon those principles of free trade which the House was so desirous to encourage. But this restraint did not operate upon those duties in Ireland alone; it operated with equal effect in this part of the united kingdom. Within half a mile of the very place in which they sat-at Covent Garden-the tolls and duties exacted there were a subject of constant altercation, between the persons who brought their commodities for sale into that market, and the duke of Bedford. disputes were felt particularly by the lower classes of the people, who brought their commodities to market, and, as far as they went, were an obstruction to the traffic of the place. But, it did not follow that there was no redress for any evil which might arise. It was true, that a committee of the House had, on a former occasion, pointed out this subject as one for which a remedy ought to be found; and the ground of that recommendation was chiefly on account of the resistance which was offered to the payment of tolls, and the disorders to which that resistance gave rise. He could not, however, agree, that this was a sufficient ground for applying the remedy now proposed. If this resistance were confined in Ireland to the payment of tolls, then, indeed, some argument might be raised upon it; but, when it was found to prevail very generally, and when the same resistance was offered to the payment of rents and of tithes, and all other dues which parties were entitled to receive, and the same disorders were the consequence, he thought it was too much to conclude, that the law was therefore deficient. His own opinion was, that by application to the legal remedies, and by that alone, the evil could be got rid of. If gentlemen, resident in the neighbourhood of places where tolls were illegally exacted, would lend their advice and assistance to the persons aggrieved, by pointing out the mode of legally obtaining redress; and, if need were, by leading the way themselves, and making an example of some great offender, there would soon be an end of the illegalities complained of, and the existing laws would be found strong enough for all necessary purposes. The greatest facility was afforded, under the present acts, to persons who had to complain. The redress might be obtained before a single justice of the peace; and, although corporation officers were, in many instances,

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