remove that cause, I think it is almost hopeless to ask that that particular individual be placed on probation. I say these things from my experience and that is the conclusion I have reached. If you can remove the cause you can hope for a cure.

I found in cases where they were committed to the care of the institution such as the county jail and then turned out on probation, we did something with them, but then, even, my star performer was arrested last night for having heroin in his possession again, although he had been sent to the hospital, and treated a good while on probation. He reported regularly every night, and came in apparently not under the effects of the drug and in good health, plenty of color and weight, and was there with his nerve and with a good story and good account of himself, but last night he failed to show up and I learned that he was arrested. The officer making the arrest said he didn't know whether he had three or four decks in his possession. There was my star performer disappointing me. You do not know when you are going to win out. Really these "coke" fiends are not cured until they are dead, because if they go back to it, they are never cured. I do not wish to stand in direct opposition to Dr. Stokes, but I feel if these fellows ever go back then they never were cured, provided, of course, we stick to the full and complete definition of being cured.

DR. STOKES: I have asked for permission to talk about one or two remarks made by the previous speaker. How do you expect to get a permanent cure for residents in the workhouse? In what more absurd situation could you place a helpless, hopeless addict? A man who said he had been eighteen years in prison told me there was never a day while in prison he couldn't get all the morphine he wanted. What do the probation officers do for these people; what is your line of work; what is your attitude? Do you help them to build character; do you give them anything to cling to; do you point out to them a clear conception of what has gone before? If so, how can you expect them to grasp it when their minds are befuddled and have no initiative? You know and I know they are cunning and deceitful. You have heard me say I wouldn't trust one of them. How can you expect results? Suppose a man slipped up; you are not going to condemn him.

We

should get together and hammer it out of him or hammer him and get him to grasp that attitude and then you will get results, but what does coddling him and seeing him every night and every day, amount to? He is simply trying to please you. Of course, he will fail. I think every court, I think it would pay (we have to put things on a sordid basis) to have a medical officer in every court to determine the man's mental attitude when he commences an offense to determine whether he is appreciative of the enormity of his crime. We see people railroaded to prison who are befuddled mentally. What good is that going to do? Suppose the drug addict or drunkard comes there. The medical officer to the court explains to the judge what this man's condition was when he committed the alleged offense; put these facts before the judge and he would gladly turn that man over to the probation officer and perhaps that awakening would produce the psychic effect that I said was so helpful. In some of these quack cures, it is the psychic impress he has received.

MR. DALY: Regarding the matter of sending the individual to the workhouse, they are sent there without any suggestion on our part and we only hope that while there they will not get the stuff. If they get it it isn't up to the probation officer. I know they come out worse than when they go in; only last week a fellow told me "I get more in the workhouse than when I am out." Of course, many things should be done which the probation officers are not able to do. We cannot do all we want to do with these individuals on probation. We should send them to some place where we hope they will get it out of them. They get mere temporary relief and then they come to us hoping they are all right. Certainly I shouldn't expect too much and I don't think any of us do, but we must accept that situation and if they are turned over to us from the hospital we take them and try to do what we can with the means at our command. I am sorry to say they are very very difficult. We would be very glad to take these fellows and lift them up, but I have found in experimenting that if I want to get one right, I might just as well give up all the others. One man will need my constant care and attention. If we could get them away from the old environment where they are continually under that influence

it would be most helpful. When with us, they are under the influence of the probation officer a short while and then the rest of the time they are under the influence of these other people. I do not think probation, as carried on now, is suitable for these offenders; it is not the best means for handling the heroin fiends. I think there ought to be some place like your institution where they can be constantly under your guidance

SECRETARY CHUTE: I would like to ask Dr. Stokes a question. Do you think there are any cases of drug users or alcoholics that can be benefited under probation? If so, what kind of treatment should be used?

DR. STOKES: Those cases possibly that have been selected by a good medical officer where the man has no clear cut knowledge of the crime committed. The field for satisfactory work in line with the splendid work you are doing is after we get through with them. Let the man who is cleared up mentally and physically come to the city and be placed under the observation and good influence of the probation officer; let him be given employment; let him be treated with respect, because if he does cast aside one of these habits he is worthy of the respect of all of us. That is the field of work of enormous importance for probation officers.

MR. FREDERICK C. HELBING, CHIEF PAROLE OFFICER, HOUSE OF REFUGE: Dr. Stokes, do you believe a man taking the Bishop Cure and Brennan Cure for two or three weeks is finally able to come out and battle against the use of the drug again or should he have institutional care?

DR. STOKES: It seems to me illogical; it doesn't seem sensible, although they do get results, but in my opinion it is from the impress they receive; they have been so terrified at what they have gone through; sometimes their pocketbooks are touched and if you touch a man's pocketbook you get a response.

I believe these men are not physically fit to go out into the world and these things I have been telling you are not visionary. They have been demonstrated in connection with this work in the laboratory. The brain of the alcoholic who dies of delirium tremens, is

compared with the brain of the man electrocuted. You can see a difference in the composition. The brain is largely disorganized. How can you get a normal response from a brain that is not together, that has nothing to get the will to what is right, the force to carry it to finality. You cannot get that from a jelly inside the skull. It has got to be built up to get permanent results. Of course, there may be slip-ups and setbacks. Many cases come from intestinal intoxication; some from bad teeth and bad teeth setting up infection and putrefactive gases in the intestines. Those cases have to be treated over some period of time.

MR. DANIEL J. WHITE, PROBATION OFFICER, CHILDREN'S COURT: Is it the intention of the institution to use any after-care officers in the field instead of the probation officers? Is it the intention of the Board of Inebriety to have field officers?

DR. STOKES: The plan is to have what we might call a "collecting zone" in the city. We will call the Warwick activity a "remedial zone." The zone of disposal after they have been through the preliminary basis is the most important. The having of a man there for a few months or year where he is under observation and is offered every care and is doing hard work and sleeps well, isn't a fair trial. The most important part is the disposal zone. It is the plan to have field officers. Those who appropriate the funds look upon our activity as something of a joke, unless someone is greatly interested in a relative or friend who is seriously afflicted, then the case is brought right home.

MR. GEORGE D. DEGENNARO, PROBATION OFFICER, COURT OF SPECIAL SESSIONS, BROOKLYN: I think in considering the question of drug addicts we must assume that these victims are weakminded and of sub-normal mentality. They acquire the habit by chance or otherwise and naturally they hold on to it until helped somehow or other.

What can we do with these unfortunates when we know they lack moral force and will power? I believe physical help alone will not be of avail to them. They must have moral help and to my mind the first consideration in all of our treatment of these addicts is the moral one. By means of the personal appeal the

probation officer can awaken the better instincts of these unfortu nates. Their will-power has been undermined to a certain extent and they have got to be helped by someone who can help them. This, of course, is the province and the duty of the probation officer, but this demands on the part of the probation officer a great deal of sincerity and strong character. A great deal depends on the personality of the probation officer and of the individual to be helped. The probation officers are handicapped to a certain extent because of the lack of time. They need a great deal of time to devote to these cases.

DR. STOKES: The previous speaker pointed out his impression. these drug-users are weak-minded. We know the armies in the field will fight for a principle; they will fight for flag, for country; they honor their countries. They may win a battle, but they will loot, they will steal, they will debauch, and why? Are they weakminded? Is any man who faces the battle possibilities weakminded? He fights for honor, and he thinks so much of flag and country, he is willing to sacrifice his life, yet it is human nature; it is hard to describe the reason for it, but he will debauch.

These men are not disordered mentally. If you could see them as I see them; they have debates and play games; work hard and with judgment and sense. I try to teach what I can in the way of trades, electricity, plumbing. They are not mentally feeble. They are men whose mentality has been out of balance and disturbed. The intoxication impulse has come to us through centuries; it is true you may be able to repress it. Someone else is not able. You may be subjected to conditions that do not awaken it and some other men may be subjected to other conditions. The first thing you know it overwhelms them. He is unfortunate and has got to be helped. It is my intention some day to write a little sort of textbook or pamphlet along these lines that we may use in the schools and in military organizations, to point out the so-called pre-inebriate stage before adolescence to a child approaching adolescence, telling him what is right, how to strengthen character, how to tide over and pass over the adolescent period. You get them beyond fourteen, fifteen and sixteen and they will go on to the early twenties and then there is another period of disturbance, and then they are pretty safe until they get along toward forty.