been all his life a manufacturer of sawn lumber, and a very respectable one. I ask him this question: has he ever found any fault with the selling of sawn lumber for export to the United States or Great Britain or any other country? He has no more right to find fault with the sale of pulp wood for export than he has with the sale of sawn lumber for export. The great question is, not what should be done with the article after it is cut down, but the preservation of our forests, and every province of the Dominion and the Dominion itself should manage the forests in such a way that they will never be depleted. Is this going to be done as the result of certain enactments as to what an individual shall do with the products of his forest? Not at all; but there is a way of doing it and that way is to cut carefully and judiciously. What is the proper way to cut? 1 make this statement, and make it advisedly; my belief is that more timber dies and goes to destruction in Canada annually than is cut. That is my firm belief as a practical lumberman of many years. Now, what should be done? Every limit in Canada should be operated in a judicious way, cutting only the old and matured timber, and not one stick of the small timber. If timber were cut under the method which I would advocate, and which I strongly advocate, there would not be nearly so much pulp wood for sale. I do not believe in cutting small undergrowth timber. It should be preserved for the future. While I am heartily in accord with the appointment of a commission to investigate this matter thoroughly, my doctrine is that what should be looked into is not what should be sold or how it should be sold or manufactured, but how to maintain and preserve the great forest wealth of Canada. It is a matter of the highest importance to the country; but it is foolish to interfere with trade and tell your neighbour where and how he should sell his products and what he should do with that which is his, and which he has a right to sell where he pleases. I myself am preparing to engage in the manufacture of pulp and paper, but I am not going to cut any of the small trees, neither shall I ask for protection; but I hope, before I go into the manufacture of this article, that every vestige of protection on paper shall I be removed from the Canadian tariff. may be bad, but I'll be hanged if I will be a sneak thief. I would rather be a robber who would boldly demand a man's money than steal it through tariffs or anything of that kind. Hon. Mr. FERGUSON-That is hard on the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Hon. Mr. EDWARDS-I will ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce, if he finds any fault with what I say; I do not think he will. I want to point out, and I do so with all respect, one little mistake which my hon. friend has made. I do not recall the number of cords of pulp wood which he said we sold to the United States annually, but he said it was sold at $4 a cord, and then he took the price of paper and claimed that in five years Canada has lost seventy millions of dollars as the result of selling the pulp wood for export. That statement is very misleading, because it has cost something to manufacture the pulp into paper, and that cost would have to be deducted from the price. Hon. Mr. CASGRAIN-Our people would get the wages. Hon. Mr. EDWARDS-We can get wages at a loss to Canada, and I claim that you deprive the farmers of Canada and the small lumbermen of Canada of this market for the small amount of material which they have to sell, and in this respect it would be a very improper imposition upon them. I hope the day will never come when this government will pass any such enactment. Educate the Canadian people not on the narrow lines of protection and what they should do in trading with one an other, but educate them to preserve one of our greatest resources, our forests and as a consequence of preserving them, preserving also our water-powers, and in time this Dominion will reap a reward such as no Canadian can realize at present. Educate the Canadian people to preserve what they have, but not on the lines of a system of slavery such as is brought about by protection; teach them just as we are teaching them in agriculture how to preserve our forests and you will do untold good to Canada. FARM REPORT. Hon. Mr. McMULLEN moved the ad- FRENCH EDITION OF EXPERIMENTAL journment of the debate until Tuesday next. Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL-What reason is there for postponing this question ? It has been on the order paper for a long time and should be disposed of in some way. Hon. Mr. McMULLEN-It has only been introduced to-day, and I want to look into some matters before attempting to speak | on the subject. I waited expecting some member of the Senate to go on and speak, but as no one rose, I moved the adjournment of the debate. The motion was agreed to. THE EXCHEQUER COURT JUDGE. INQUIRY. INQUIRY. Hon. Mr. COMEAU (in the absence of Hon. Mr. Choquette) inquired: Does the government know that the Experimental Farms Report for 1906 has not yet been published in French? And, if the answer is in the affirmative, what means does it propose to take to hasten such publication and prevent similar delay in the future? Hon. Mr. SCOTT-I hold in my hand a copy of the Experimental Farm report in French, which was issued during the summer of 1907. It was down to the year 1906. The last report made by the department was only presented to the House of Commons during the present session. It has been translated and is now in the hands of the printer. Hon. Mr. COMEAU (in the absence of TENDERS FOR IRON WORK ON INHon. Mr. Choquette) inquired: 1. Does the Hon. W. Cassels, recently ap pointed Judge of the Exchequer Court of Canada speak French and does he know the civil law of the province of Quebec? 2. If not, does the government propose to appoint a second judge of the said court who knows French and is acquainted with the civil law of the province of Quebec, so that French-Canadian citizens shall be upon an equal footing with English-Canadian citizens before all the tribunals of this country as prescribed by the constitution? For Hon. Mr. SCOTT-Mr. Cassels is a native, I believe, of the city of Quebec, and no doubt in his earlier years was a fluent speaker of the French language. many years he has been living in Toronto, and probably is not so well up in the French language as he was in his earlier life. I noticed in replying to the address presented to him by the Bar of Montreal, that he expressed the hope that the next time he addressed them he would speak to them in their own language, which seemed to please the Bar of Montreal, who found no fault with him for the manner in which he referred to his knowledge of the French language. I am not aware whether he is versed in the civil law of Quebec or not, but he is a gentleman of ability, and I have no doubt he can very soon become versed in civil law. It is not proposed to appoint any other gentleman on the bench. TERCOLONIAL RAILWAY. Who supplied the government with the CLEANING OF FORTS AT ST. JOSEPH brushes which have been bought for the use of the Intercolonial railway? Was it after tenders had been asked for that these purchases took place? Who tendered, and at what price was the contract awarded? hon. gentleman's questions are as follows: 1. Brushes are being supplied the railway by Messrs. Hector Lamontagne & Co., Montreal; Robert Carrier, Lévis; A. M. Bell & Co., Halifax, and L. S. Macoun, Ottawa. 2. Yes. 3. The following parties tendered: Hector Lamontagne & Co., Montreal; Cragg Bros. & Co., Halifax; Caverhill, Learmonth & Co., Montreal; Robert Carrier, Lévis; The E. Cavanagh Company, Montreal; A. M. Bell & Co., Halifax; L. S. Macoun, Ottawa; A. Prudhomme & Fils, Montreal. Contracts were awarded at the following prices: To Hector Lamontagne & Co.-Car wash brushes at $8 per dozen; artists' flat brushes -inch, 65 cents per dozen; whitewash brushes at $1.40 per dozen; artists' flat brushes, 4-inch at 85 cents per dozen; deck scrub brushes at $2.80 per dozen. DE LEVIS. 4. Mr. L. J. Mathieu, clerk of military works, Quebec. 5. Mr. Mathieu, who is a permanent offiIcial of the department, and in receipt of an annual salary of $1,500, received no extra remuneration for supervising this work. SHIPBUILDING INDUSTRIES OF CANADA. INQUIRY. Hon. Mr. DOMVILLE rose to: To Robert Carrier-Counter dusters, $2.10 per dozen; paint brushes, round, $11.25 per dozen; point brushes, flat, $12.96 per dozen; Call attention to the desirability of assistpaint brushes, flat, $5.40 per dozen; painting financially the shipbuilding industries of Canada, and will ask if the government has brushes, flat, $2.70 per dozen; artists' given the subject any consideration, or is brushes, round, 30 cents per dozen; artists' likely to? brushes, round, 34 cents per dozen. To A. M. Bell & Co.-Scrub brushes, $1.20 per dozen; stove brushes, $1.40 per dozen; battery brushes, $1.95 per dozen; varnish brushes, 1-inch, $1.65 per dozen; varnish brushes, 14-inch, $2.80 per dozen; painters' dusters, $4.85 per dozen; paint brushes, gray and white, $12.75 per dozen; sash brushes, No. 2, 57 cents; No. 3, 70 cents; No. 4, 85 cents; No. 5, 95 cents; No. 6, $1.30; No. 7, $1.40; No. 8, $1.05; No. 9, $2.10; No. 10, $2.65. To L. S. Macoun.-Turkey feather dusters, $2.85 per dozen; varnish brushes, oval, $8.50 per dozen; paint brushes, round, $9 per dozen; stencil brushes, No. 3, $1 per dozen; stencil brushes, No. 4, $1.30 per dozen; stencil brushes, No. 5, $1.60 per dozen; stencil brushes, No. 6, $1.90 per dozen; stencil brushes, No. 7, $2.50 per dozen; stencil brushes, No. 8, $3 per dozen. He said I come from a shipbuilding province, New Brunswick, alongside of Nova Scotia, which, for many years, had their main industry in shipbuilding, with their lumber. They built ships and manned them with their own men and sent them to sea. Their earnings came back, and every ship on the ocean was really a factory producing revenue to the province. After the iron ships came into vogue, the trade in wooden vessels fell off, and they looked with anxiety for some industry that would take its place and maintain the commercial standing of the maritime province. I would ask what is going to bring them up? We do not object to a very vast expenditure in the west; we have no reason to say that the west shall not be developed. But, in the meantime, we, in the maritime provinces, must think of our present position, and what our position in the future is to be. We are naturally considering whether we are going to get a wharf, or whether the government are going to do any dredging. Every vessel that comes there to load leaves a certain amount of toll. There is toll for loading and toll for unloading, and so on, but I will not go into that branch of the question on this occasion. Every vessel that enters our ports leaves so much money there, but that is not what we are looking at. We are looking at the future. There is the Transcontinental Railway; we all pay our share of that. There is the Georgian Bay Canal, being discussed, and no doubt that is a worthy enterprise. We contribute our share. There is the Hudson Bay Railway which is to be run up there to bring down the caribou and all other game. We do not object to that, Hon. Mr. PERLEY-It will take wheat out. We could do the same. We afterwards. could obtain our material from England now, but we would be met with the tariff on the material and would be at the disadvantage of having to pay the heavy freight from the old country to Canada, and we would not be helping to build up our local industries, because we would not be using the iron and steel produced in Canada. We wish to be placed on an even keel in that matter. My suggestion is that something should be done in the direction of, we will call it a bonus or assistance, -bonus is a good word-so that we may be on an even keel with England and foreign ships, and will have ships constructed in Canada, bonused to a certain extent, so that they can be built by us as cheaply as they can be assembled in the old country. Our own ships would then be sailing with our own produce, and we would be educating and maintaining a the fleet of sailors, which would be a good thing for the empire, who, when necessary, would be able to render assistance Hon. Mr. DOMVILLE-Where are they to the old country in manning their ships. going to take it? Hon. Mr. PERLEY-To England. Hon. Mr. DOMVILLE-We do not object to that; but we think the direction of legislation should be, perhaps, to our individual advantage, if we chose to so call it, in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia has done well with their bounties and their steel, iron and coal. That is a step in the right direction, but we want to come down to what is more beneficial to us. That is shipbuilding. We can build wooden ships which will compete in design and model with any in the world. The Marco Polo' was built in St. John, and nothing could compete with her. But as the trade passed away from us, and iron vessels came in, we suffered severely, and we want to get back to our previous supremacy in shipbuilding, if we can. The rolling mill producing iron can roll the plates and angles and various pieces that go into a modern vessel, and we want to build ships in Halifax or St. John, even as they did first of all in Ireland at Belfast. There was no iron there. They brought over all the material to Belfast, erected the ships there, and sailed them We would produce hardy seamen such as we used to have, such as England produced when they went to fight the Spanish pirates in South America, so that we could send our sailors out on such expeditions if the opportunity offered. Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED-As pirates? Hon. Mr. DOMVILLE-Yes, if you like. There is no fault found with the government. We do not care anything about the government of the past, and we are glad to see the present government getting along, but that cuts no ice with the great prosperity of the maritime provinces. Governments pass away and new governments come in. The soil still remains, and we must have industries suitable to the soil. They could hardly manufacture the goods required at the head of Lake Superior, at Fort Francis for instance, where I was the other day, on account of the distance. I observed that they were getting coal for $3.25 a ton delivered at Fort Francis. They have their iron mines and blast furnaces, their structural steel for the west and rolling wire. We would never pay the freight from St. John to compete with them, but we must ask the government to consider the matter as to whether they will not assist us on such a basis as will revive a past industry. The Board of Trade of St. John sent me a communication under date the 30th April, which reads as follows: St. John, New Brunswick, Canada. April 20, 1908. Senator Jas Domville, Ottawa. Dear Sir, I have the honour to enclose herewith, copy of a report re Steel Shipbuild ing in Canada, submitted to the board by Mr. George Robertson, as our representative on a delegation to the government two years. Hoping this may be of use to you. I beg to remain, yours faithfully, To the President and Council of the St. John Gentlemen,-Pursuant to my appointment as your delegate to meet a delegation in Ottawa representing all the ship building interests in Canada for the purpose of meeting the Dominion cabinet and endeavouring to secure a sufficient bounty to insure the establishing of steel ship building in the Dominion on a paying and premanent basis, I beg leave to report as follows: That on March 22 the delegation met in Ottawa, and were received by the Minister of Finance and other members of the cabinet. The following gentlemen were present at the meeting, Hon. Mr. Fielding, Hon. Sir William Mulock, Hon. Mr. Fitzpatrick, Hon. Mr. Emmerson, Hon. Mr. Prefontaine and Hon. Senator Power of Halifax, Mr. Roche, M.P., of Halifax, Mr. Carney, M.P., of Halifax and Mr. Johnston of Cape Breton. The following delegates were present: Mayor Scharfe, of Dartmouth, Mr. De Wolfe, Halifax, Mr. Allison, Halifax, Alderman Johnston of Halifax, Mr. Bertram of Toronto, Mr. Nichol, Toronto, Mr. Clergue, Sault Ste. Marie, Mr. Robertson, St. John, New Brunswick. Mr. DeWolfe of Halifax introduced the individual members of the delegation to the ministers and then referred to the efforts Halifax was making to establish a ship building plant in that city, an English firm offering to take a large interest in the project pro viding the government would grant a bonus to assist the enterprise. Halifax has promised a grant of $100,000 in cash. The Nova Scotia government $100,000, and Dartmouth $100,000, all for the same purpose. A provisional company has been formed and the sum of $30,000 subscribed for the purposes of promotion, and a very large and suitable site has been secured for the yard Mr. DeWolfe went very fully into the subject and recited the efforts that had been made in the past stating that nothing had been accomplished, because of the divergence of opinion between ship builders on the Great lakes and tho e who contemplated establishing a yard in a Canadian sea port. The point made was that the competition would be much more keenly felt in maritime province ports than it would be on the Great lakes from yards already long established in Great Britain, and that for the first few years at any rate, of its existence a Canadian shipyard should be assisted Не by means of a bounty or bonus of so much per ton from the Dominion government. stated that the delegates from the lake ports and the maritime provinces had agreed to ask the government to grant a bonus of $6 per gross ton for the term of ten years to assist in steel ship building in Canada. The members of the cabinet evinced a deep interest in the subject and among the important questions asked was one by the Finance Minister as to what constituted the construction of a ship, that is to say, would the material be all Canadian or what part of it? This Britain and Nichol, practical ship builders of question was answered very fully by Messrs. Toronto. They said the steel plates had so far been imported, but there was no reason why they should not be made in Canada, referring specially to facilities for work of that kind in Cape Breton. I judge from the information given by these gentlemen that in a short time after the enterprise became firmly established on a paying basis, that practically all the material used in the construction of steel ships could be produced and manufactured in Canada. Mr. Clergue, of Sault Ste. Marie also gave a most interesting and valuable address dealing with many aspects of the question. Alderman Johnston of Halifax, made a very interesting address referring to the splendid position his province held at one time in the wooden ship building and the present lonesome look of the old ship yards, and his belief that the establishing of steel ship building throughout the maritime provinces would assist in retaining our young men at home, and would be one of the greatest boons that could be conferred upon the maritime provinces and decidedly in the interests of the whole Dominion. This is not an application from men of straw. They are the leading men of Halifax, and they say they will put some money into it, and they recognize that it is a bona fide and praiseworthy industry for them to assist. They therefore approach the gov ernment asking them if they will assist them. They ask for a moderate sum which will put them on an even keel, and they point out what it will do to build up the country, and they say, We are going to sail the seas as we did before, with a Canadian fleet, carrying Canadian produce.' That is what the east says. Let us see what the west says. Take Ontario: There is a firm at Collingwood, Thomas Long, I I received a letter from think is the name. Mr. Thomas Long, Collingwood Shipbuilding Company, Limited. He was down here the other day and he asked me to present a statement to the House as his view of the question. The letter reads as follows: The national importance of the shipbuilding industry cannot be over-estimated at the present stage of development of Canada's resour |