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legal ornaments of the Law and Courts of

inhabitants of Bond-street and St. James's-st." Bill. (Hear, hear) The question has been But he would assert with confidence, that if "frequently asked, Will the Lords pass the they were to apply not only to the inhabitauts “ Bill?' I answer the question by proposing of Bond-street and St. James's street, but to another-Dare they refuse it? (Loud cheers.)' inquire at the shops in all the streets in Lon-" If they do refuse, upon what can they ground don, Southwark, Westminster, and Mary-"their refusal? Is it upon right? If it comes boane, they would find that the people had not! "to a matter of right, they have no right to enly become cool towards the measure, but!" interfere at all in the case, for the reform we that they generally blamed the ministers" seek is the reform of the House of Commons, for proposing such a bill. When they and the House of Commons is not their House were told that to pass this Bill was the only" but ours. (Hear.) Observe, that the greatest way to prevent a revolution, it might be more justly said their passing it under the present" our country have declared that the Peers circumstances would occasion a revolution; have no such right., So Simon D. Ewes, and and when he looked at the proceedings at the "Coke upon Lyttleton, have decided, that im Meeting of the Birmingham Political Union, «cases which concern exclusively eitherHouse, in order to vote their petition, he might say the other House has no right to interfere. that the revolution was not only threatened, (Hear, hear.) Upon this principle it is, that but actually begun. (Hear, hear.) These the House of Commons does not interfere people were not contented with the accounts with the election of the representative of their proceedings given in the newspapers," peers of Scotland. (Hear.) Can the Peers but they published them for themselves, with refuse the bill, because their trust is in the medals attached to them; and if the language "army? No. They cannot have an army to used by the orators at such meetings was not fight for them without they pay that army; that of intimidation; he did not know what" and if the people refuse to pay taxes, how was; for in case the Bill did not pass, they will that army be paid? (Loud cheers.) But openly threatened to employ physical force to supposing the English people were foolish carry their measure. One person-he believed" enough to consent to pay taxes for the supply a person of the uame of Haynes, had said that" of such an army, where would it be found? › they were met to the number of 150,000, to" (Hear.) Would the gallant men who have petition the Lords to pass the Bill, and this" reaped immortal honours in foreign lands was the style in which he addressed these" consent to tarnish those honours, by mur 150,000 men :—“I agree that the power of "dering their wives, their friends, and relathe people is greatest, not when it strikes," tives? (Loud cries of No, no.) To support "but when it holds in awe; not when the the tyranny of four hundred men over six"blow is actually struck, but when it is sus- "teen millions, would they imbrue their "pended. As Manlius said to the Roman peo-"swords in the blood of their countrymen ? "ple, "Ostendite belium, pacem habebetis;' so "There is not a town, nor village, nor even "I say to you, show that you can fight, and" a bamlet, which had not contributed one or "you will never be under the necessity of more brave men to fill up the ranks of our "fighting. (Loud cheers.) It is to the calmarmy; and will these men, at the call of the "manner in which the people have exerted" boroughmongers, come forth to shed the "their power that their success has been de-blood of their relatives upon their fathers' rived. As Mr. Attwood had said, the Le-"graves? The supposition is ridiculous.” viathan is hooked in the nose, and with Here this man had dared the Lords to refuse *150,000 men at the foot of Newball Hill to pass the bill. Was not this the language of "to hold the rope, the Leviathan could not intimidation? If it was not, he could not un- › "escape. (Loud cheers.) When the Reform derstand what was the language of intimida"Bill was carried into the House of Lords, tion. The whole tenor of the language ap"they were surprised like Belshazzar at his plied to physical force; and he might there unholy feast. They were not, like him, fore say, that revolution was not only threat*profaning the vessels of God's altar, but ened but begun. Mr. Attwood, who was at "they were profaning that which, next unto the head of this meeting, told them," that the bis altar, the Almighty prizes the most unholy domination of the Oligarchy was "namely, the happiness and liberty of his now coming to an end. He (Mr. Attwood) “peuple. (Lond cheers.) But now their dy- “ did not mean to say that they could live "nasty is nodding to its fall-the hand-writ-" without labour, and hard labour too. But *ing has appeared against them they have" he meant to say, that every honest labourer “been weighed and have been found wanting," in England had as good a right to a reason"and if they do not speedily give us that "able maintenance for his family in exchange "which is our own, it will be taken from for his labour as the King had to the crown "them. Loud cheers.) The power of the upon his head; and this was the right which people is triumphant-they cannot stand" he was determined to enforce. If he had "against it; as well might the devils in hell" seen this right secured if he had seen rise in opposition to the decrees of Divine "every honest man in England possessing an "justice: (Loud cheers.) As you are aware," undoubted security for an honest bit of "my countrymen, we are met to the number" bread for his family-if he had seen every ** of 150,000, to petition the Lortle to pass the honest labourer possessing abundant wages.

量

"for himself, and at the same time leaving putting to the test the expediency and con "reasonable profit to his employer, he would venience of this course, and with that view he 66 never have assisted in the formation of the laid in his claim to take advantage of theo "Political Union." Was this the way in principle. If, therefore, he should happen to s which to address a meeting of 150,000 people? speak on the bill this night, and any one au Ought they to be told that they ought always swered in such a manner as to gall him, he, to have abundant wages for their labour, and to be sure, would not reply to that answer; that the employer ought always to have a but then he would have a petition to present, reasonable profit on his capital? It was and this would give him an opportunity of impossible that the wages of labour should making another speech, without waiting for amount to more than its value in the market; another stage of the bill. (Hear, hear, hear.) and if wages were to be higher, it was im- The objection was the inconvenience, but he possible that the employer could have a rea- admitted the right, and meant to take the sonable profit on his capital, It was merely benefit of it. (Hear, hear, hear.) Now, as to practising a delusion on the people to per- the observations of his noble Friend on the suade them that the passing of this bill would subject of the proceedings of the Birming bring them higher wages, or a larger profit on ham Political Union meeting, which, when their capital. He hoped, however, that they joined by: other Political Unions in the would not be influenced in their proceedings neighbourhood, was said to consist of 150,000 k by intimidation, or a dread of physical force. men; it has often been represented as a He repeated his belief, that the feeling in and very hard measure that a great and numer about London in favour of this bill was not so ous assembly should be held to be responsible strong as it was represented to be. But it was for such improper and unjustifiable expres-or the object of the London press to magnify this sions as might fall from one or two persons.TM feeling, and to say that it was very, strong in It was not fitting that the great body London and its vicinity, in order to produce should be answerable for the intemperate exe the stronger impression on the country. He pressions of one individual, or of a few indie I had seen the Westminster meeting and some viduals who might attend the meeting. He,oz others in and about London, and he confessed claimed the benefit of that maxim in favourides that they appeared to him quite ridiculous; of these petitioners, and protested againstur so much so, that the respectable persons who their being held responsible for intemperate is attended them appeared to be ashamed of expressions, which were not only improper,250 them. Still, he believed that a vast majority but contrary to law and common sense notor were looking for a reform. (Hear.) He ad- merely seditious, but perhaps amounting toote mitted it. He had said so before, and he re- little less than a capital felony. (Hear, hear, 17) peated it, and in that object he was willing to hear.) Hei protested against the injustice of go along with them as far as he safely could.supposing that those who found themselves in But he maintained that there was among the a situation where they could not avoid listen... people of London and its vicinity, a great ing to these grossly improper expressions, shrinking from and great dread of this bill, were responsible for such expressions, when and that now few comparatively would corn all probability they highly disapproved of s dially support it. bazoong themi Let the meeting be judged of, not by The LORD CHANCELLOR :➡As he had had the intemperate language of one or a few but on Y the honour to present to their Lordships theby its acts and so far was its conduct from other London petition, unanimously agreed manifesting any-thing like sedition or dis-nort to at a public meeting, and also the petition loyalty, that more than 100,000 people took sitr of the Birmingham Political Union, also off their hats simultaneously, and solemnlyon? unanimously agreed to at a meeting repre- prayed for a blessing on the head of their urva sented as consisting of from 100 to 150,000 Sovereign. (Hear, hear.) That was not a US persons, he hoped their Lordships would allow vindication of the speaker who spoke bsu instroli him to say a few words on the remarks of his temperately, but it was a proof that the las»»^ 36 noble Friend.. But, first as to the course sembly neither meant to begin non to com⇒19 </ which his noble Friend was pursuing. His plete a revolution. (Hear, hear) He did not La noble Friend had been heard at great length mean to follow his noble Frieud through his se against this bill although not at greater remarks as to the feelings of the people in ads length than his talents and weight entitled London and its vicinity. His noble Friends o him to. But he had had his speech against had said that not merely the people of Bond-binthe bill, and he had been answered. But his street and St. James-street were now adverse ju i noble Friend did not wait for another stage of to this bill, but that even those of London, sa 53 the bill, or for another proper, opportunity, Southwark, and Marybunne, as well as the sa to reply to that answer; but he took ad-people of Westminster, were shrinking with darkn vantage of the presentation of a petition, in dread from the bill. But suppose that before va order to make another speech against the bill. his noble Friend was five minutes older a peÚS His noble Friend had a perfect right to do so.tition even from the inhabitants of Bond-streets (Heary hear, from the Duke of Cumberland.) should be presented in favour of the bill (hear, wwwi He admitted the right and sanctioned the and a laugh) and suppose that to-morrow a53* principle, and he now laid in his claim to take petition in its favour should be presented from advantage of it for himself He was now the inhabitants of 18t. James-street (hear,

of; and, to show that he had been rightly understood, a noble Earl had, in the course of that very evening, very nearly quoted his (Lord. Grey's) observations verbatim. This, then, was the fact as to what he had said; but did the House suppose that he was so ignorant of the privileges of that House, or so presumptuous as to his own power, as to say what should or what should not take place in the committee? That alone depended on their Lordships. (Cheers.) When the bill shall have reached the committee, the noble Lord may propose any alteration he pleases, and, indeed, he ought to vote for the second reading, after bis declaration of the other night, in order that the bill might go into committee. (Hear, hear.) When they heard the noble Lord assent to the disfranchisement of rotten boroughs to the giving representatives to populous and opulent places to adding to the number of the county members

bear), and so con from all the streets which | the measure in that Houses He had originhis noble Friend might choose to name in the ally stated, that though he would submit to course of this prognostications, this would be any alteration that was consistent with the the best answer to his noble Friend's remarks, principle of the bill, he would not agree to and there he would leave them. any that would detract from its real efficiency. Earl GREY: After what his noble and learn-That was the assertion which he had again ed Friend had said, it was hardly necessary made the other night; and he added, that if for him to make any observations on the their Lordships should reject the bill, he would. remarks of the noble Lord opposite. He not be the person to propose any measure that joined in the protest against attributing the should be less conclusive. (Loud cheers.) idle and intemperate expressions of an indi-Those were the words which he had made use vidual to a whole body. But their Lordships would not be prevented by idle and intemperate expressions from doing their duty. When the billin favour of the Roman Catholics was belge their Lordships, they might well remember what intemperate expressions were used on one side and the others but the noble Duke who was then at the head of the Ad ministration, had disregarded these intemperate expressions, and passed that greats and important measure. The noble Baron still persisted shat the general feeling of the country was not in favour of the Reform Bill; but all that he would say in answer to that was to appeal to the petitions that were laid on their Lordships' table. (Hear, hear.) He was ready to admit that there were persons of respect ability in London who might entertain sentiments unfavourable to reform; but he thought that it was rather too much to assume, that a petition from 800 persons formed a satisfactory ground for thinking that it spoke the sentiments of the great body of that opulent city, (Hear, hear. With respect to the meeting at which the petition, presented by the noble Baron had been agreed toy it had been held pursuantito no public advertisement or notice; while, on the contrary, the meeting from which emanated the petition that he (Earl Grey) had presented the other night, was held, after having been advertised for a week, in the Egyptian Hall, and, being attended as numermaly as soy former meetings the pati tion was agreed to unanimously. It was true that the petition in March had been signed more numerously, but that was owing to its lying a longer time for signature, and not to any falling off in the public opinion fhear, hears and be relieved that on investigation, it would be found that the people of England were maw as much in favour of reform as they had been at any former period (cheers); and as a proof, aber would remind their Lordships that there were persons who previously would not acknowledge: the public desire who had said that all the excitement was transient but who had at length very much altered their tone, (cheers), and had shown an inclination to accede to somessost of reform, having up to that time expressed themselves adverse to any reform whatever. (Cheers.) The noble Barot bath said that he (Earl Grey) had re fused to admit of any alteration in the bill Now be really did think, that what he had stated on Monday night was sufficiently clear for all men to understand. i It was the same that he had stated on the first mention of

the noble Lord had, in fact, assented to the whole principle of the bill (loud cheers), and all the rest was only a question of degree, which it was for the committee to decide. Let the bill then go into committee, and let the noble Lord, when it was there, propose his alterations; and he Earl Grey) would tell the noble Lord what should be his (Earl Grey's), conduct in that case. If the noble Lord proposed alteratious which he thought calculated to diminish the effect of the bill, and, instead of making it a benefit, only turn it into a delusion for the people, he (Earl Grey) would most strenuously oppose them; but, at the same time, he should be perfectly prepared to discuss them, and to leave them to the decision of the committee. These were the grounds on which he intended to act, and which he had stated over and over again; and after this explanation, he trusted that there would be no further misunderstanding of his intention. (Hear, hear.) He was pledged to this measure, or one as efficient, and he would not be a party to anything that should diminish it; but he had not stated that alteratious might not be made that should not diminish its efficiency, or that he was not prepared, in the committee, to consider any alterations that might be proposed.. (Hear, hear.)

"

The Earl of HADDINGTON said, that the Lord Chancellor had read a lecture to his, noble Friend for making a speech in answer to the debate on the Reform Bill, but he (Lord Haddington) thought that the noble Earl who had just sat down had been doing

exactly the same thing. (Hear, hear.) With nificent a deduction from slender premises respect to the question brought before the as he had ever heard. (Laughter and cheers.) House by his noble Friend (Lord Wharn- Lord TENTERDEN agreed with the noble cliffe) he thought that the House had a right and learned Lord as to the danger of rejectto complain that threats had been held out, ing a just and reasonable measure; but the and that they were not to be allowed to judge matter for them to consider was, whether this of the bill on its own merits. (Hear, hear.) | bill was just and reasonable (cheers); and in' He believed, that although there was a georder that they might come to that consideraneral feeling in favour of reform, there were tion, he should move the order of the day for also great apprehensions as to the result, resuming the adjourned debate. should the bill pass into a law. (Hear, hear.)

Earl GREY rose to order. There was a question concerning a petition already before the House, and there were other petitions to

Lord TENTERDEN had not been aware of that.

The Duke of BUCKINGHAM begged to recall their Lordships to the question of the Bir-be presented. mingham petition. He agreed with the noble and learned Lord that the sins of the few were not to be visited on the many; and it was a The Earl of WICKLOW would not have admatter of congratulation to him to hear that dressed their Lordships if there had only been noble and learned Lord state, that what had the words read by the noble Baron to be combeen read by the noble Baron was only the plained of at the Birmingham meeting. But language of a single individual; and he he would ask the noble and learned Lord on would never believe, till he actually saw it, the Woolsack, whether his correspondent had that any body of Englishmen could be se- informed him that one of the speakers, after duced by a demagogue to set themselves in having adverted to Hampden having refused to opposition to the institutions of the country. pay the ship-money, had stated that in like But he, nevertheless, begged the noble Earl manner he would refuse to pay the taxes; and to take warning by what had taken place at had then called upon those who would refuse with Birmingham, and to recollect that this lan-him to hold up their hands, upon which the hands guage had not been held out at a common of one hundred and fifty thousand persons were meeting, but at a political union, which the noble Earl had himself acknowledged, (Cheers,) and with which he had himself corresponded. With respect to the words which had fallen from the noble Earl on Monday night, he (the Duke) had taken a note of them, and they were" Your Lordships must take this bill"-upon which there were cheers on this side of the House, after which the noble Earl went on-" Your Lordships must take this bill, or some other measure more dangerous, which you may not be able to resist." (Cheers from the Ministerial side.)

held up; after which he called on those who would not refuse, to hold up their hands, and there was not one exhibited. (Hear, hear, hear.) He should like to know whether, after that fact, the noble and learned Lord would still maintain the peaceable, orderly, and kindly disposition of the meeting at Birmingham. (Hear, hear.)

The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that nothing could have been more natural than his noble and learned Friend's (Lord Tenterden's) mistake, in supposing that they had been debating for a couple of hours without a question before Lord PLUNKETT did not see there was any them; for it was a thing that they were in the thing in the words that had just been quoted habit of doing continually. (Hear, hear.) But by the noble Duke calculated to call for it so happened, most extraordinarily, that there reprehension. What his noble Friend had was a question before them at that instant, stated was a matter of opinion; and, as far as and he should avail himself of it to answer the that opinion went, he must say that he en- query that had been put to him by the noble tirely agreed with his noble Friend (Cheers); Earl who had just sat down. His correspondand he believed that any one acquainted with ent, he begged to say, had not mentioned the the consequences of rejecting a measure safe, fact which had just been stated by the noble just, and reasonable, must feel that there Earl; nor had he (the Lord Chancellor) would be a demand on the part of the people heard of it till that moment. He certainly for something that would be unsafe, unjust, did not like the fact, but what he had to say and unreasonable. (Hear, bear.) With reabout it he would reserve for the debate on spect to what had taken place at Birmingham, he agreed that the words that had been quoted by the noble Baron were only chargeable ou one individual.

The Duke of BUCKINGHAM: On two or three.

the bill. Undoubtedly it was a disagreeable piece of intelligence (a laugh); but, neverthe less, as a lawyer, he must say, that all those hands might have been held up, and yet he could not say that there was any breach of the King's peace, or any offence that the law Lord PLUNKETT: Well, suppose it were so. knew how to punish. He could not help it. Upon this the noble Lord because one, two, Such was the law. With respect to the or even three had acted improperly-not only "kindly” disposition of the meeting, that arraigued those, but told the House that there was a new word introduced by the noble Ear!! was not only a revolution in progress, but one What his correspondent had stated, "was, actually completed in the country. (Cheers that the meeting was conducted as regularly and laughter.) This certainly was as mag-as one of their Lordships' meetings (a laugh),

and that it had separated as quietly as children coming out of school. (A laugh.)

that no breach of the peace had been committed. The Chairman said it was a peaceable meeting, meaning that there was no riot.

Lord TENTERDEN was not ungrateful to bis noble and learned Friend upon the Woolsack for the admonition received from him, but he could assure the House, that even without that admonition he should have refrained from pronouncing any opinion, for the matter might come before him judicially; and if his noble and learned Friend had not so addressed to the House the necessary explanation, he himself should have felt bound to explain.

The Earl of ELDON should be ashamed of himself, if, after living so long in his profession, he did not take that opportunity of saying a few words. No man could be more ready than he was to admit that a meeting was not auswerable for the declarations of an individual; but if by holding up their hands, or in any other way, the meeting had endangered the peace of the country, he knew no reason for believing that they had not already fallen into the situation of being answerable to the laws of the country. (Hear, bear.) If those state- Lord WHARNCLIFFE and the Earl of DUDments which had been read to the House had LEY rose at the same time, but the latter gave really been made, be would take the liberty way. The former said, he did not mean to of saying, that if those statements had come impute the words of the speech to any one but under the cognizance of the law officers of the person by whom it was spoken, or to fix the crown, and if no satisfactory explanation responsibility for it, upon any other person; of them had been given, those authorities had but he desired to call the attention of Governnot done their duty to the country in failing toment to this, that if they allowed such probring theta under legal notice, (Cheers.) But ceedings to go on much further every-thing this being the case, he was necessarily disposed like legitimate authority in the country must to believe that there was some way of account- cease. lag for men having presumed to make such statements. As a lawyer, he begged to apply himself to the Lord Chief Justice of the King's

Lord HOLLAND-I do not rise for the purpose of calling any one to order, but I would beg to request the attention

Bench, and to the noble and learned Lord order that I may be allowed the House, in

state the condiwho, for so many years, had presided over the tion in which matters now stand. The question Court of Common Pleas (Lord, Wynford); before the House is, that a certain petition do and he desired to know from these noble and lie upon the table, and upon this a conversation learned Lords whether, if those hands had takes place. Now I have no intention of been held up is the manner that had been making observations upon the Birmingham described and the fact could be proved meeting, or upon Political Unions, any further every individual in the meeting was not in point than to observe, that what we have heard toof law as much answerable as the man who had night is nothing more than a repetition of proposed to them to hold up their bands. (Hear, what the noble and learned Lord opposite has hear.). And be begged to tell the noble and often said before upon similar occasions. For learned Lord (Brougham), towards whom he example, when the Association in Ireland was should ever entertain the greatest respect, that under discussion, and also in the case of that seat on the Woolsack would not be a seat various other associations in other places, he which any one, could maintain for six months, over and over again told us, that the country if the doctrines which were now circulated could not last if such things were allowed to throughout the country which were every continue. I confess it has always appeared to morning placed under the review of every one me, that discussions of this nature will neither were suffered to be promulgated any longer. redound to the honour or diguity of this House, (Hear, bear. That was his opinion; he or in the least degree assist our deliberations. alone was answerable for his opinious, andHowever, upon that subject I will not trouble for: that he was prepared to answer at all basands

The LORD CHANCELLOR rose, not so much for the purpose of replying to the observations just made, as for the purpose of preventing is noble and learned Friend under the gallery from answering the question put to him. If the waiter in question were an indictable offence, his noble and learned Friend might be called upon to try it, and therefore he would at present feel the impropriety of delivering any opinion respecting the law as ap plicable to the acts done. It was quite a mistake to suppose that he (the Lord Chancel Ine) bad given the slightest countenance to the Birmingham meeting: he merely said that no breach of the peace had been committed. An indictment might be preferred for an offence of another natures upon that he gave no opinion: he went no further than to say

your Lordships with any observations, neither shall I say much upon any other topic; but I cannot refrain from just noticing what fell from a noble Baron as to the feeling of the city of London, and which I cannot for a moment allow to pass without registering my dissent, But as to what fell from a noble Baron on the Cross Beuch, I will assert, that nothing more unjust, more unwarrantable, or more uncalled for, was ever uttered. The words of the noble Duke were quoted, and what do these words amount to?-If you reject this bill you will soon have another bill for reform, though not from the same hands or from the same government-that would be a bill in truth more unpalatable to some of your Lordships, though, probably, more in accordance with the votes of this House. I can think in such circumstances of a noble Lord or noble Duke who had previously declared, that no