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that the former suit had been called on and was present in this House the day after the dismissed, and costs given against the farmer ; debaie that took place elsewhere, I did not, but, added the learued and reverned Judge, however, then interfere, because, though I “ it must be a mistake;" and he furth with was astonished at hearing what was attributed ordered the unfortunate farmer to pay the tithe I to my noble Friend, I was not aware of what then clained, and also the costs of this second had actually taken place.
I say, Sir, I suit. The farmer astonished, with tears it was surprised, because, though my noble his eyes, begged for mercy, or at least that Friend (with whom I have acted all ihrougla the fornier costs should be deducted ; but the life), and the rest of the Cabinet, will Judge told him, that if he did not pay what always be ready to enforce the law, yet was now ordered, a munition should issue at the whole principle of his life has been, that further expense to him, and that if he said a when extraordinary powers were necessary to word more, he should be sent to gaol for dis- coforce the law, they ought not to be given turbing the court, and delaying the course of uuless they were accompanied with a remedy public justice. Several other causes were next for the grievances complained of. This is the tried that day, for claims by the same clergy- priuciple upou which iny noble Friend has man for tithe of tobacco for 101. per acre. always acted; and I appeal to the House wheThis new claim was decreed to the clergy. ther I have not always acted on the same prinman, and the Judge followed his sentence, by ciple. I admit that it is neces-ary that the law saying “that be wished the clergy of the should be upheld, and that illegal combinadiocese to bring suits before him for the tithestions should be put down : but if these are of every thing that grew in their parishes, and caused by grievances existing in the country, that he would decree in their favour; and that which it is in the power of the Legislature to if they could prove to him that ink bottles remedy, I say ibat they ought to be remedied. grew upon trees, he would tithe them." This, Sir, is the principle on wbich GoveroAnother parish from wheuce the peritivos ment is prepared to aci in this instauce; and have come is Carne; it pays, on an average, this tow, is the only priuciple on which we 10s. au acre tithe; it has only two Protestant cap act. (Loud cheers.) families in it; and one of them, an old yeutle Mr. Hume expressed his perfect satisfac. man, had been for the last thirty years per- tion at the explanation of the noble Lord, and petual church warden—there not being a from his (Mr. Hume's) kuowledge of his chasecond male Protestant parishioner; yet the racter aud principles, he was convinced that clergyman wanted to force the parish to build the noble Ear! must have been misunderstood. a new church, ou pretence that the old oue Ke (Lord G.) never could have meant to force was too small for his congregation. Another the payment of tithes against the will of the of the petitions comes from the union of Dun. nation by military force. cormuck, where the rector endeavoured to Mr. O'Connell likewise expressed his satis. enforce tithes of eggs, poultry, and milk-a faction at the explanation of the voble Lord. tithe unknown in Ireland. Another is from Mr. Shaw delended the Protestant clergy of Maglas; the former clergyman of which used Ireland, and stated, that in the most disturbed to erase the sums charged by his tithe proctors county, the tax on account of tithe did not in their valuation books, and insert larger amount to one-twelfth of the value of the sums in lieu, which he in some instances relaud, as paid to the landlord. He contended, covered from his parishioners; but the fraud the resistance had been eutirely caused by the was at length discovered. Those were a lew labours of Doctor Doyle and the Catholic instances of the tyranny of the present sys- clergy, and observed, that force should be tem. For centuries has this grievance been resisted by force-if not the country would be complained of; for centuries bave the Irish in reduced to a state of anarchy and confusion. vain demanded justice; and he should coue Mr. BLACKNEY spoke with great rehenience clude with the sentiment of a learned and re- against the tithe system, and thought the spected prelate : “May their haired tu tithe time had come when it should be abolished. be as lasting as their love of justice."
Sir R. Peer said, it bas been my uniform Lord ALTHORP: I do not by any means wish to discourage premature discussion ou a think it desirable to interlere in the debates subject which it is difficult to discuss withou: on politics; and if this petition had ouly prejudicing that deliberate cousideration which been supported by the speech of the hon. the Huuse will be bound to give to it berealier. Gentleman who presented it, and the bon. I will not be tempted to engage in this disGentleman who followed hiin, I should not cussiou—and I now once more advise the have been rempted to address the House on House to reserve its judgment until the comthe subject. But wbat bad subsequently mittee shall have sent in its repurt, and ire fallen in the course of the debate, and some of shall have before us at once the conclusion to the observations of the bon. Member for Wex- which they have come, and the evideuce upon ford, made it imperative for me to trouble the which they came to this cuuclusion. Lot, House for a few 'ininutes. That lion. Gentle- Sir, I cannot refrain from expressiog my deep mau has said that my noble Friend at the regret at the declarativos made by the organs head of the Government, threateved to deluge of his Majesty's Governmeut in the wo Ireland with blood, for the purpose of colleci- branches of the Legislature, which, wbetter ing the tithes. Now, Sir, I'must admit that I they be reconcilable with each other or not,
are certainly calculated to make impressions | Union Committees which could make it im-
subject were about to come to a decision, Lord ALTHORP: Sir, I have heard with which, if not quite, would be at least nearly very great surprise the observations of the unaniinous. He had not heard the observaright hon. Baronet; for I thought that I had tious of his noble Friend near him, nor of the distinctly guarded iyself from such remarks, noble Lord in the other House, but he was hy stating our determination of enforcing the ready to declare himself, that ibe Guvernlaw. But I stated then and I have no hesi- ment would not have come down to Parliament tation in now stating again, that I think,
that to ask for a coercive measure unless they felt if extraordinary powers are to be called for at the same time that they were able to from Parliament to enforce the law, the resist. promise relief. (Cheers.) At the same time,' ance of which bas taken place in consequence as a justification for their asking for the of a grievance,
we are equally bound to propose coercive measure in the first instance, he a remely for that grievance, in unison with wished to remind honourable Members that the application for those additional extraordi- a measure of relief, especially if intended to Dary powers. The riglat hon. Gentleman says, be one of permanent and substantial relief, that what I stated had a direct tendency to was of a nature more complicated, and would prevent the enforcement of the law; I cannot require more time for its preparation than insagine how this is to be proved to be the case. would a measure of coercion, that was reThe right hon. Gentleman also says that i quired solely for the vindication of the law ought not to have made my statement, unless (Hear, hear.) He, however, again repeated, I was prepared to absolve the commitice in that the Government would not readily bave both Houses from their inquiries and recom- undertaken to bring forward a coercive meamendations. I have not the honour of belong sure, if, at ihe same time, they had uut been ing to the committec of this House, but I do able to promise the introduction of a measure Dut apprebend that anything has passed in the of relief.
Mr. Croker was glad of the explanation with respect to the threat of the hon. and just given by the riglt honourable Geutle- learned Geotleman, be should only observe, man, by which lie supposed that the Ministers that much as he might regret the future uonwould execute the law immediately, but that attendance of the hou. and learned Member, at the same time they were prepared to intro- the other members of the committee would duce a measure to remove, but the existence recollect that his first attendance at the com. of the tithes themselves, but the evils atteud- initiee had been on the day before yesterday. ing their collection.
The petitist was laid upon the table. Mr. STANLEY said, that the right honour. | Mr. LAMBERT, on moving that the petition able Geutleinan supposed that the attention be printed, assured the nuble Lord ibat be of Ministers was not directed to ibe existence hari never meaut that the amount now paid in of thes. He begged leave to say, that their tithes should be merely taken from the pocket attention was directed to secure the maiu- of the parson to be given to the landlord. tenance of the Prote-tant clergy, and at the Wr. WALLACE defended the conduct of the same time to the exis:ence of the system of Ministers with respect to the question of the tithes. (Hear.)
appointment of the committee, and asserted Mr. Sheil said, the last declaration of the that they had done more for the sa'isfaction right hou. Gentlemau was as satisfactory as it of the country, by the line of conduct they was explicit. (Hear, bear.) The righi hun. had adopted on this question, than they could Gentleman proposed coercio: first, and said by auv other that had been pointed out. at the same time that he was prepared with a Sir R. INGLis thought that the last observa. measure of relief. That bad been the course tion of the right hou. Gentlemau opposite bad pursued by the right hon. Baronet opposite, only tended to establish a premium for dison an occasion which they could never forgei, content. In future it would be a mere question (hear, hear, hear),—the occasion when the of the amount of openly expressed discontent riglit hon. Baronet asked that Huse to put required to put dowu any grievance; and the down the Catholic Association, and to pass a necessary amount of discontent being found, bill for the relief of the Catnolics; saying at it would be readily applied for such a purpose, the time, that if the bill of relief was not and the evil wonid disappear. Did not the passed, he should abandou the bill for sup- Ministers perceive the evil effect of the prepressing the Association. (Hear, hear, hear.) cedent they were ibus establishing? Did they Recollecting, as he must always gratefully not perceive, that if they gave up one great recollect, that circumstance, he should not body in the country, they would never be as now ask'ivhat was the measure of coercion, eli able to defend any other that might be siuce he found ihat it was to be accompanied attacked? with a ineasure of positive relief. He had uo The petition was ordered to be printed. wish whatever that the money taken from the clergyınan should be put into the pochet of the landlord. Let a tax be raised, let provisiwa be madle, to secure to the clergymau that to which he was justly entitled, deducting only
DEBATE IN THE LORDS. the charge for the receivership; and it, after the death of the present incumbents, tout
17th Feb., 1832, which was deemed at least isy tise people to the Lord ELLENBOROUGH was understood to public property, was applied to the purposes say, that when the report of the Irish Tithe of public utility (one of which purposes was Committee was read, on Thursday, he was the decorous maintenance of the reliion of di-posed to ask the noble Marquis who the state), the people of Ireland would be brought it up, for an explanation respecting sausfied; but no measure that merely went to Iwo points, which did not seem to be inade secure iú a better masner, the present incomes sufficiently clear in that document; but be of the clergy, would ever content them. thught it bet er to wait until he should see, (Hear.)
upon the perusal of the printed paper, whether Mr. LEFROY sai!, that is such a measure as any question on those puiets was vecessary: that supposed by the hon. and learned Gentle. But he did not find the necessity of putting man who bad just spoken to be in contem- the two questions which were at first suggested platiou should be adopted, he should cease 10 to hiin at all removed by the printing of the attend the lature meetivys of the committee. document. In the report it was suggested that He soped that the right hon. Gentleman His Majesty's Government should be emwould disciain any intention of introducing powered tv'lery, through the agency of the such a measure, and say distinctly whether Attorney-General, under a law to be bereafter the tithes were iuteuded ti be appropriated to passed for the purpose, the amount of tithes any other purpose than the maintenance of which had been illegally withheld in the year the Establisäed Church?
1830. But as it was evident that the AttorneyMr. STANLEY answered that he was respon- General coulil only act on the iostructions of sible for his own language, but was not re- the Governinent, be wished to ask whether the sponsible for that of avother person. He expenses of the proceedings to be taken by thouglit he had stated as far as was proper that officer, under the direction of his Maor requisite the views of the Governmeut; and jesty's Mioisters for we recovery of tithes,
should be defrayed by the Government, or be extended to that period. His only ubject, deducted from the gross amount? Tu auother in bringing these matiers under the cousideraclause it was recommended that the Govern- tion of the uoble Marquis was, that the poble ment should have power to levy the tithes due Lords opposite might them elves have an opfor the year 1831, and that extraordinary portunity of making ibe necessary alterations powers should be given them for that purpose, in the hill now on the table. Now he wisbed to know, as that power was to Lord PLUNRETT was of opinion that the be given, without prejudice to the claims of extraordinary powers ought not to extend the clergy for the arrears due on preceding further than for the recovery of the tithes years, was it intended that the clergy should which had been iliegally withheld in the last proceed for those previous arrears, whilst the year. Government was proceeding in the mean time, The Earl of Wicklow said, that the answers by virtue of extraordinary powers, for the which had been given to the questions put by tithes of 1831? Now, that would give rise to the uoble Baron wear him, would not tend by an anomaly, which it was the professed object any means to satisfy the Irish clergy, or to do of the voble Lords who constituted the con- away with tbe alarm which had been excited mittee to remove that is, that two parties by the resolution avowed by his Majesty's. should be applying at the same time to the one Ministers. The poble Marquis must know occupier for the payment of tiibes. There that it would be a considerable time before a would be also this anomaly, that whilst the hill founded on the report could come into titbes, for the collectiou of which extraordi- their Lordships' House, as it must originate, Dary powers were givell, were those of 1831, he believed in the other House of Parliament. the tithes of which the payment had been il. Their Lordships must be aware that, in the legally resisted were those of 1830. (Hear.) mean time, the report would be circulated But the noble Marquis must see that ihe au- throughout the country, and would bring thority of the laws would not be sustained, disappointment and alarm to the friends of uoless power were given to enforce the pay- the Irish church establishment. The report ment of tbose liibes which were first illegally recommended powers to be given to enforce resisted (hear, hear), and unless that power payment only of the litbes of the year 1831; were extended over the whole period during but thuje tithes were not payable in that year, which the resistance was continued. As it and therefore the bill could give no immediate did not appear that the Committee bad fully relief, and the clergy would look upon the considered and matured their plan, it might report as an abandonment of their property Dot be to, late to call the attention of the up to the year 1831. It was nut yet the rime Duble Marquis to the two points to which his when the clergy in most parishes were accusa questions relerred.
toned to apply for the titres of that year. The Marquis of LANSDowne, in replying to (ilear, bear.) But the payments that ought the question of the noble Baron, spiske in a to be enforced were those for the year 1630, tone by no means distinctiy audible in the which were last year illegally resisted. (Hear.) gallery. He was understood to say, that the in truth, the systein of resistance had existed expenses of recovering the arrears should be more than two years, and was confined, for paid by the clergy, so far as :hey did not ex- the most part, to one part of the country, as ceed the expenses which would bave been iis appeared upon the face of the report. It did curred in the recovery of those arrears by ibe appear to him that, if anything were wanting ordinary processes; and that it was not pro- to prove the progress of revolutionary principosed to give extravrdinary powers for the ples, it wouid de proved by this-that such a levying of any arrears except of those tithes report, declaring the subversion of ibe law of of which the payment had been illegally the land by a daring combination, extending
over a large portion of the United Kingdom, Lord ELLENBOROUGII agreed with the noble should be laid upon their Lordsbips' table by Marquis, that it would not be advisable to a Minister of the Crown, without one word of give extravrilinary powers either to the tithe, comment or explavation. How the noble owner or to the Government, for the recovery Lord at the head of bis Majesty's Governof all arrears without distinction. But still lie ment could reconcile himself to the abandonwas of opiujon that such powers should apply ment of the law under such circumstances, to all arrears which had been incurred during and bow he could reconcile bis own declarathe period in which the illegal resistavce was tions in that House some evenings ago with
those that had since been made elsewhere, he The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was not heard (Lord Wicklow) did not understand. Tuother
places it had been said that al bouglı it was Lord ELLENBOROUGU loped that the de. the determination of his Majesty's Ministers cision of the volle Marquis was voi irrev"; to uphold the laws of the land, yet they would cable, and that his Majesty's Ministers wou'd not do su without at the same time removing give the subject a fulier cousideration. He the grievances existiny. In that declaration would again remind their Lordships that the it was obviously implieil, that the law of the resistance commenced in the with holding of land which had existed since the an vexation the tithes of 1830, and it was therefore ti be of Ireland to the English Crown was a grievdesired that the extraordinary powers should auce. (Hear, hear.). He denied that the law
in his reply.
which bis Majesty's Ministers proposed to those who wished again to renew all the evils submit was a grievance. (Hear, hear.) He of party strife in Ireland, and who had nothing denied that tithes were a grievance. They at heart but the triumph of party, by what. were a wise, equitable, and useful institution. ever mischiess to the country that triumph But the grievance which existed in Ireland might be attended. (Hear, hear, bear.) It was wbolly attributable to the Ministers then was to remove the effects of that inisrepreselves. (Hear, hear) Had they given the sentation he had made the declaration to people to understand in the beginning that which the noble Earl referred. Although he they were friends of the law and of the Church vid say that it was the determination of the Establishment in Ireland, there would not Government to uphold the authority of the exist any reason for the violent revolution laws, be stated at the same time that no man which they were now proposing to effect in was more convinced than he was of the absothe laws of the country. (Hear, bear.) lute necessity of removing the grievances
Earl Grey should have thought, that if connected with the existing system of tithes, ever there were an occasion for the ebullition of which Irelaod so loudly complains. (Hear, of party spleen aud violence, which he had bear.) The poble Lord, in alluding to the that evening witnessed (hear, hear)-it cer- report, took occasion to cast imputations upon tainly was not on an occasion when his his Majesty's Ministers. Could that noble Majesty's Government were about to bring Earl believe that they were persons likely to forward a measure to relieve the existing dis. shake the foundations of the laws, and to tresses of the Irish Clergy, and to protect subvert the institutions of the country? their rights. (Hear.) He should not have (Hcar?) The noble Lord reproached them thouglit that the time when such a measure with proposing the extinction of tithes, and was proposed, should give occasion to such accused them of a design to overthrow the an attack upon the Members of the Govern-laws, and with having denonuced the law as ment from those, above all others, who had a grievance. If the uoble Lord would look to most at heart the security of the church and the evidence which had been produced before the welfare of the Government-he should not the committee, as he ought to do, if he had bave said wbo bad those objects most at heart, no kuowledge himself of what was doiug in for nu man bad them more at heart than he Ireland, he would be convinced that, although himself—but who best could speak the senti- it could not be admitted, nor would he (Earl ments of the Irish clergy. (Hear.) He Grey) ever admit, that the law of tithe was a trusted, however, that the noble Earl's en grievance-the mapuer in which the law was deavour to raise a clamour against the mea executed was a grievance. (Hear, hear.) From sures recommended in the report of their that evidence the noble Earl would see that Lordships' Committee-whatever might be there could not be safety to the church or the noble Earl's motive (liear)—would not be tranquillity 10 Ireland uurit an eotire change successful. (Hear, hear.) He hoped that, should have been effected in the mode of exenotwithstanding the attempt to misrepresent cuting that law. When the words "extinction the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers, their of tithes" was used, the meaning intended to exertions would not be misinterpreted or mis- be couveyed by them was a commutation of understood. He trusted that it would lse tishes to some other provision, which might seen that they proceeded in a determination give at the same time more satisfaction and to support the authority of the laws. (Hear, greater security to tbe clergy, and would prebear.) He trusted it would be seen, when vent a collision between them and the occathe evidence which had been taken before the piers of the land. (Hear.) To effect those obCommittee should have been laid upon the jects, and, in doing so, to promote the peace table, and have been examined, that the of Ireland, was the purpose of his Majesty's charge which the noble Earl brought against Ministers when they proposed to the cominitthem, was unfounded, and that no effort had tee the measures alluded to in the report been wanting on their part 10 enforce the The proposition was submitted to the comexecution of the laws by every means in their mittee with the most anxious care, and with a power, and that they had gone even beyond desire to do justice to all parties, to preserve wbat, by the strict letter of the law, might be the rights of the church, and to establish the required of them (hear, bear), wherever the peace of Ireland. With respect to the matters clergy called for their assistance. He would to which the poble Baron opposite (Lord Elappeal to the House and to the country lenborough) had drawn the attention of their whetber he had ever been wanting in his ex- Lordships, he could only assure the poble ertions when the authority of the law was Baron that those things should be fully coosiresisted. (Hear, hear, bear.) Notwithstand- dered when the bill came before the House, ing the imputations cast up-u the Government and wheu the House was in possession of the by the noble Earl opposite, it was the deter- evidence necessary to enable it to decide upon mination of the King's Ministers to enforce them. His Majesty's Ministers were undoubt the authority af the laws on all occasions edly indebted to the puble Baron for having where it should be atteinpted to resist them. directed their attention to matters which be What he had said upon a late occasion had seemed to thiuk could occur to none but to been made the ground of an accusation against bis superior understanding:
But he (Lord kim by a misrepresentation on the part of Grey) would assure the ouble Lord that those