[1394 was announced that abill was to be brought | England would give difficulty enough if in for the suppression of one and two it succeeded, and he therefore thought it pound notes. When that announcement was made, a question was put to him, as to extending the measure to Scotland. He very unwise to increase the difficulty, by the intentions of the government to extend the measure to Scotland and Ireland. to adhere to any measure out of mere was sure the noble earl was the last man His answer was, that it was intended to punctilio, and that he did not now propose do so, but not at the same time that it the committee, because he had on a former was to be carried into effect in England. occasion announced his intention of doing It appeared, however, that there was, on the part of the people of Scotland, a ge- express his regret that any committee was so. Under these circumstances he must neral sentiment against the measure being to be appointed. extended to that country. What then, he would ask, was the best and most decorous course to be adopted? Why, to institute an inquiry into the facts, as to whether the bill ought to extend to Ireland and Scotland or not. Not having as yet heard any argument against the expediency of extending the measure to Scotland and Ireland, he thought the best mode was, to appoint a committee. under a mistake if he supposed that any Lord Melville said, his noble friend was The committee had, in fact, been apmeasure was to be immediately introduced. pointed, and his noble friend should have question before their lordships was, to made his objections on that motion. The refer the petitions to that committee, and his noble friend could not surely object to that. There were many individuals who system of banking; and by having the were totally unacquainted with the Scotch committee, their lordships would have the details brought before them, and be better enabled to judge of the propriety of extending the measure to Scotland. His noble friend had hinted that the measure would be prejudicial if extended to Scotland; but he was sure the noble lords who not concur in recommending any measure were to compose the committee would which was not proper. It was quite a mistake to suppose that the committee would inquire into the stability of particular Scotch bankers; but it was due to those bankers to state, that they made fects of the system; in fact, they wished no objection to a full inquiry into the ef the inquiry to be made. At least, this good would result from the committee, that it would bring before their lordships, when the report should be made, all the details of the system, and satisfy them whether the measure should be adopted in Scotland or not. The Earl of Aberdeen said, that an experiment was about to be made for which he saw no necessity. The people of Scotland had made no complaint, and had suffered nothing from their Banking system. If they had suffered, or had complained, then it might have been proper to institute an inquiry. There was, on the contrary, a universal sentiment prevailing in Scotland against any alteration. He had not heard what was to be the object of the inquiry, nor any good reason for instituting it. If it was deemed expedient to revert to the state of things that had existed before the Bank Restriction act, would it not be the wisest way to wait until the experiment was first tried in England? But, if an opposite system had prevailed so long, and with such good effect in Scotland, he saw no cause why it should be disturbed. Under the present system the people of Scotland had prospered. He did not say that the whole of that prosperity had been caused by the banking system, but it had been cotemporaneous with it. If their lordships fooked back for a century, they would find Scotland in a state of barbarism and disorder, and they would find at present, to use a strong phrase of a noble lord near him, that the people of Scotland were the connected with Ireland, he would not one, best-conditioned people in Europe. He in regretting that a committee should be did not suppose this had been produced appointed to consider of the propriety of by their having one-pound notes; but the people were contented with them, and without some good reason he did not extending the measure to Scotland and was was think it necessary to make any alteration. no disease, no remedy was required. The experiment about to be tried for Their lordships should wait to see 4 U the effects of the measure in England, before they thought of extending it to Ireland. The consequences of agitating the question were already disastrous. By letters which he had that day received from Ireland, he had learnt that the markets had tumbled down 50 per cent, and no merchants were willing to become purchasers in consequence of the agitation of this question. The measure would be infinitely more mischievous in Ireland than in Scotland. In the latter country, a sovereign was hardly to be seen, but the paper circulation in Ireland was founded on what modern political economists considered the best of all possible principles, that of a metallic currency, for the notes might be immediately converted into gold. Ireland, as compared with England, was a poor country, in which the dealings were on a small scale, and the circulating medium should be of a corresponding cha racter. The Earl of Lauderdale would ask the noble earl opposite what was the professed object of this measure as applied to England, but to restore confidence? Now, he was at a loss to see how it could restore confidence; and hitherto it had only operated against restoring confidence. But how such a measure could be thought necessary to restore confidence in Scotland was what neither the noble earl nor any other person could take upon himself to say. In Scotland a perfect confidence already existed. The people of that country were universally satisfied with their banking establishment at Edinburgh. There was but one dissentient, and he was a retired goldsmith, who moved an amendment to the proposed motion, at a very large meeting there, to the effect that every dependence was to be placed on the wisdom of his majesty's government. He could not help being curious to know who this gentleman was who entertained so singular an opinion. He learned that he was a retired goldsmith, and therefore supposed that the habits of his life had produced this extraordinary attachment to a currency consisting of that metal. It reminded him of a story told by Dr. Johnson, in one of his pamphlets. The doctor, in describing the effect of habit on mankind, related an anecdote of a retired tallow-chandler, who, or selling his business, stipulated that he should be allowed to attend his old shop on melting-days. As to the appointment of a committee, it appeared to be objected to, both by those who were for, and who were against the measure, though their arguments were very different. The noble earl behind him (Grosvenor) was for ministers going forward with the measure without any committee. He would not have them flinch an inch. His noble friend opposite (the Earl of Aberdeen), on the contrary, was against a committee, because he thought the measure ought not to be adopted; and in this view he confessed he agreed with his noble friend. It seemed to be supposed that the Scotch bankers had a particular advantage in the system that existed in that country. Unquestionably, men would not employ their capital in trade but with a view of deriving profit from it. It was clear, however, that the Scotch bankers would have more profit if they were to follow the English mode of doing business, and give no interest to their customers. If, therefore, they joined in the petitions, it must be from a conviction of the advantage of the system to the country. But it was the people of Scotland who were to be considered—that people who had grown up to prosperity with the system now in practice: it was to inquire what the effects of the measure would be upon them, and not upon the bankers that the committee would be appointed. He was sure that whatever evidence was produced before the committee would only show the advantage of the present system in Scotland; and, perhaps, they would furnish the noble earl with some useful hints how to new model the banking establishment of this country; instead of inducing him to cram down the throats of Scotchmen the system pursued here. The Earl of Liverpool was surprised that the noble lord should persist in objecting to all inquiry. He now, it seemed, thought it would be more dignified in ministers to do that which he had often accused them of doing; namely, come forward with a measure, and force it down the throats of parliament. With respect to what a noble earl had said on the subject of Ireland, he was astonished at the nature of his argument; for, if it was true that Scotland had been benefited by her banking system, surely the same thing could not be said of Ireland. The noble earl could not say that that country had not suffered by the failure of banks; for certainly no country had suffered more in that way than Ireland. It would be no answer to this to say, that a new banking system was established in Ireland. Whatever advantage might be derived from that system, it was as yet an experiment. The question, therefore, as it respected Ireland and Scotland, stood upon different grounds. But, as it related to Scotland, he begged noble lords would go into the inquiry fairly. The question of the banking system of Scotland was not to be considered with reference to its general operation on the people only, but more particularly to its effect on the commercial part of the community. Now, if their lordships looked at the commercial embarrassments which had occurred during the last five, ten, or fifteen years, it would be found that Scotland had suffered as much as England. How far this was connected with her banking system, he did not mean to stop to inquire. But there was another question. Could the Scottish system go on under the existing state of things? Could their lordships say, that it was possible to support one system in one part of the United Kingdom, and another in the other? It was necessary that the system should be the same in both countries. It was said, however, by the Scotch, "Keep your English system, and let us have ours, under which we have so long flourished; or, if you will assimilate the two, why not adopt the Scotch system for England?" But the real question was, could Scotland, in financial concerns, do without England? When distress occurred, could the Scotch merchants find relief without coming to England? Could they manage their affairs without depending on the Bank of England? Would they, in moments of difficulty, never call for sovereigns from that Bank? Then, indeed, let them have their own system! But if this was not the case-if both Scotland and Ireland must lean upon the Bank of England-if, in periods of difficulty, the commercial classes of those countries must come to this for relief then assimilation was necessary. Connected together as the countries were, where an alteration of the banking system was made in England, it seemed to be at least proper to inquire, whether it would not be necessary to make a similar alteration in Ireland and Scotland. This was the great point of the subject; and he had stated it in order that his noble friend might turn his mind to it. The question was, whether Scotland was in so secure a state, that, happen what might, she was perfectly safe. If that should turn out to be the case, then she ought to be left to manage her own banking affairs as she chose. The Earl of Lauderdale said, that the noble earl supposed a case of necessity arising for applications from Scotland for commercial relief, either by Exchequerbills or advances from the Bank. Now, if it were not for the noble earl's new mode of management, how would his argument stand? In a period of commercial distress, the people of Scotland had just as good a right to apply to government for relief as the people of England. Thus his whole argument arose out of his own practice. In the present period of distress he had granted relief, by guaranteeing the Bank [The earl of Liverpool, "No."] Well, then, if the noble earl had not guaranteed, he had induced the Bank to make advances; and upon that the essence of his argument was founded. The people of Scotland must, of course, come to the Bank of England for gold. If the bankers in Scotland possessed Bank of England notes, they had only the same right to call for payment as the bankers of France had; and that was all that they wanted. As to the banks of Scotland leaning on the Bank of England, there was no such leaning, and no occasion for it; but they must come to the Bank of England for gold as long as the noble lord chose to allow that body to possess exclusive privileges. The Duke of Athol deprecated partial discussion, and thought their lordships ought to defer their observations until they had the report of the committee. Lord Clifden approved of the measure, and thanked ministers for getting rid of the small notes. No idea could be formed of the misery of the people of Ireland when the country banks failed in the years 1819 and 1820. In those years nine Irish country banks broke; and one in Dublin. It was of great importance to prevent those country banks from springing up again. There were now established in Ireland new banks, consisting of numerous wealthy individuals, which he hoped would be found to work well. For his own part, he felt an extreme horror of one-pound notes; and thought it must cause distressing sensations in every feeling mind, to reflect on the great sacrifice of human life which these notes had occasioned. The Earl of Carnarvon could not see fore, if the noble earl was determined to any insuperable obstacle to the establish- press this measure, it would have been ing of chartered banks within a limited more candid and statesman-like for him distance of the metropolis. It did not to have proposed the extension of it to appear that there had been any offer of Scotland and Ireland at once, without compensation made to the Bank of Eng-going through the useless ceremony of an inquiry. The motion was then agreed to. HOUSE OF COMMONS. CIVIL The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply, Mr. Herries moved, "That 200,000. be granted for defraying the charge of civil contingencies for the year 1826." land to induce it to relinquish this portion of its privileges; and no one could suppose that the Bank would gratuitously make the country a present of this boon. The present proceeding was a most extraordinary one: for after applying this measure to England, without having made any inquiry as to its expediency, it was now proposed to lump Scotland and Ireland together, and to inquire whether it would be expedient to extend it to those countries. Besides, was it a proper season for agitating this question, when cre- Mr. Hume said, that the estimate for dit was in a ticklish state, and confidence the present year was on the same extravain a great degree destroyed? Instead of gant scale as those for the preceding disturbing the public mind by this alarm-years. In his opinion, the rate of exing proposition, it would have been more pense was unnecessarily large, nor was politic to have had recourse to some heal- the country in a condition to bear so ing expedients. He conceived it would enormous a charge as that of half a milhave been much better that this inquiry lion annually for the expenses of her am should have been conducted before a com-bassadors abroad. From the year 1818 mittee of the whole House; for when he saw that the committee selected for this investigation consisted of nearly the same persons who constituted the committee in 1819, he was afraid there was little probability that the paper system would have a fair chance before such judges, as he had no doubt that these Midases would resolve to extract bullion blossoms from Caledonian thistles. Why the House should be called upon to alter the currency of Scotland, when no human being had complained that that currency did not work well in practice, he could not conceive. At any rate, the committee ought not to have been a select one, but a committee of the whole House. to the present moment, the exorbitant charge for the pay and expenses of our diplomatic department had been progressively increasing. In 1824, there had been a vote for the service of our embassies to the amount of 320,178. and in 1825, the sum was increased to 326,416. There was a charge of no less a sum than 73,8611. for extraordinary expenses of ambassadors; 19,260l. for their outfit; and 6,4011. for presents. There was an increase upon the present vote of 60,0007. for missions to South America; and 40,000l. for consuls to that country, making, in the whole, an additional expense of 100,000!. By a paper which had been laid before the House only this morning, it appeared, that Lord Ellenborough agreed in thinking there was a charge of 79,000l. for consuls that it would have been better to have re- generally, and 11,000. for consuls to ferred this measure to a committee of the the Levant. The vote now proposed to whole House. Had that been done, the the House did not correspond with either consequence must have been the abandon- of these sums. He did not disapprove of ment of it at least for one year. But the our embassies to South America; but whole proceeding struck him as a most both the number and expenses of those to extraordinary one; for their lordships the European courts ought to be reduced. had, in a few days, without any inquiry, The government ought not to continue determined upon the adoption of this mea- such expensive embassies to the minor sure for England, and now it was proposed courts of Europe, which had no influence to inquire how far it might be advisable upon the general politics of the larger to extend it to Scotland and Ireland; kingdoms, and which had not any coinwhen, in point of fact, unless it was ex-mercial relations with Great Britain or its tended to these two countries, it must be dependencies. He thought it would be wholly ineffectual for England. There- quite sufficient for England to keep merely the cost of providing a temporary resi dence for our ambassador, and that in future the extraordinary disbursements of this embassy would be trifling. But he now found an item in the estimates of the present year of 12,000l., for a consul in Switzerland, at the rate of charge incurred in 1792. He had not only to protest against the extremely high rate at which we paid the salaries of our ministers abroad, but he had more especially to object to the exorbitant charges under the head of extraordinary" repairs to the hotel of the British emdisbursements. He would take, as a proof bassy at Paris." The government thus of what he asserted, the charges made for went on improvidently increasing their exexpense of our minister. at Paris. He penditure from year to year, and unless found, on referring to the estimate, a the House interfered to check such excharge of 17,570l. under the head of extra travagance, they would soon have the ordinaries, whilst there was an additional charge of our embassy to France amount charge of 13,000l. for salary. If to these to 50,000l. per annum. In 1792, our sums were added the various other al- diplomatic expenses in France amounted lowances, it would be found that the an- to only 9,000l. per annum, including exnual expenses of our ambassador at Paris traordinary disbursements and incidental alone, amounted to 50,000l. This was expenses of every description; and in more than the whole of the Civil list of 1822 they amounted to 14,555l. Our exthe United States of America. In the penses for the Russian Embassy were year 1792, the whole expenses of this 14, 5351. The salary of our minister at country for the pay of ambassadors, and Vienna was 12,000l. and other expenses for every species of diplomatic service, made his account amount to 14,000l. At amounted to only 185,000l., whilst, in the the Hague our minister cost the country present year, the charges amounted to 14,189, and at Berlin the charge was half a million sterling. He knew that it 8,000l. We paid for the salary and extrawas a doctrine of the Treasury benches, ordinary expenses of our ministers to the that it was necessary to grant liberal sala- two Sicilies 7,2001. Could any man pretend ries and high rewards, in order to get the that there was any utility in keeping up public service ably and zealously performed. such an establishment at such a court? In It was saying very little for the public Sweden we incurred an annual expense spirit and honour of the gentry of Eng- of 5,300l.; in Denmark, 5,800. These land, to declare that the momentum of sums were for permanent pay, exclusive their public exertions was the money they of extraordinary charges and disbursecould extract from the pockets of the ments. The court of Wurtemburgh people. For his part, he had no hesitation was of no political importance whatto declare his belief, that in the propor- ever; and he would put it to the House, tion as the salaries of public servants whether the country ought to be put were advanced above what was absolutely to an annual expenses of 4,619. for a just and necessary, was the public service minister to such an insignificant court? injured by an inefficient performance of In Tuscany, the salary of our minister, official duties. Whenever the emoluments independently of extraordinary expenses, of public situations were large, beyond was 3,900., and the same charge was the duties to be performed, appointments made for the court of Saxony. The would be granted as matters of patronage, government ought to reduce the exand other qualifications than talents would penses of our ministers at these minor be deemed the adequate, if not the only, courts, more especially as they were so pretensions to office. But, reverting to constantly augmenting the expenses of the items of charge in the estimates, he our ministers at the principal capitals of found every thing on a scale correspond- Europe, and we were now exposed to the ing to this extravagant establishment of expenses of our embassies to South our minister at Paris. There was one America. There was a charge of 3,2771. charge which had been made in a former for extraordinary expenses at Vienna, in year, for the purchase of an hotel, for the addition to a similar charge of 17,000l. in residence of our ambassador at Paris. France; 775l, in Russia; 374. in Prussia, The sum was above 30,000l.; and when and 1,0347. in Sweden. Independently of he had objected to such an extravagant pro- salaries, we were thus going on gradually ceeding, he was told from the Treasury increasing our extraordinary expenses benches, that the incurring of this ex-year after year, until we had already pense would hereafter save the country swelled the account to the enormous sum |