Mr. LINCOLN. I am not, Senator. Senator BRISTOw. I suppose Mr. Wheeler will explain that. Senator JONES. I understood you to say a while ago that when independent ships were purchased by railroads the result was the raising of water rates? Mr. LINCOLN. Yes, sir; raising the water rates. Senator JONES. Can you give us a particular example? Mr. LINCOLN. I could prepare and give the committee a record. There is the Texas Steamship Co., from New York to Texas CitySenator JONES. Can you give us the facts in regard to tha ?t Mr. LINCOLN. I could have the facts secured Senator JONES. I wish you would. Mr. LINCOLN. Personally, I have handled no freight, but I know the movement of freight. Senator JONES. I understood you to say that the independent steamships had been acquired by railroads and operated by them and that had resulted in raising the rates, and if you can give particular information with respect to that I, for one, as a member of the committee, would like to have it. Senator BRISTOW. I agree with Senator Jones. I would like to see that, too. The CHAIRMAN. Certainly. I would like to suggest in that connection that you show when the railroad took the steamship line, what the independent rate on the steamship was before the taking and how much it has been raised after the taking, and also what the combined rate is now and was before the railroad took it so that we can have a comparison of the water and the combined rail and water rates to show whether they are higher now than they were under the independent operation; also if you can, whether the old independent steamship line rate was a properly remunerative rate or not, before the railroad took the line. Mr. LINCOLN. I will undertake to gather that for you. Senator BRISTOW. You spoke of the Texas City Steamship Line, saying that the result of railroad competition was the increase of rates. Is that the independent line that is now running to Texas City? Mr. LINCOLN. No; that is not the one I refer to. Senator BRISTOW. What line was it? Mr. LINCOLN. There is a small line running from New York to Texas City now, but it is not the one I referred to. Senator BRISTOw. Can you tell us about that Texas Steamship Line? Mr. LINCOLN. There is going to be some difficulty about getting the rate because they are not published. They move the freight from port to port, consigned from New York to Galveston. The freight is taken up and forwarded by the agents of the steamship company to points in Texas. There were no joint through rates established; but I can give you information as to what were the prevailing rates and what are the rates now by communicating with some of the larger concerns now using that line. Senator BRISTOW. What became of that line? Mr. LINCOLN. It is generally understood that that line was absorbed by the Mallory Line. Senator BRISTOW. Is it still operating? Mr. LINCOLN. I would not answer that as a fact. I think it is being operated by their boats being under charter. Senator BRISTOW. Did the Mallory Line have facilities or favors from the railroads that enabled it to compete successfully with the Texas Line? Mr. LINCOLN. The Mallory Line had joint through rates from New England territory via the port of New York to Galveston, whereas the Texas Steamship Co. did not have any through rates and was making its rates from port to port. Senator BRISTOW. And in that way was embarrassed in its competition with the Mallory Line and the Morgan Line? Mr. LINCOLN. I believe it was. Senator BRISTOW. Can you give us the details of this embarrassment? Mr. LINCOLN. I will undertake to do it. I think I can gather the facts for you. The CHAIRMAN. I want to call your attention to the map, hanging on the wall, of the New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad, showing their water-line connections from ports on Long Island Sound to New York City. Mr. Buckland, the vice president of that company, testified the other day, if I recall his evidence correctly, that the New England Navigation Co., which is the company through which the railroad company holds its steamships, paid a 3 per cent dividend, or earned 3 per cent net on its business. Now, if the railroad is compelled to sell its steamboats, do you think that the joint rail and water rate from interior points in New England tapped by the New York, New Haven & Hartford to New York City would be less than they are now? Mr. LINCOLN. Mr. Chairman, I would not like to testify upon that situation, because I have had no occasion to investigate the waterborne traffic between ports on the Atlantic Ocean. The CHAIRMAN. I wanted this specific view of it. It struck me that if his testimony is correct (and I have no reason to doubt it); if the road operating those steamships in connection with its own terminals and wharves can make but 34 per cent upon the steamship part of the business, and they are compelled to sell those boats to people who can not control the terminals and connections with the railroads as the railroads can, independents would not want to operate the boats. It does not seem to me that there would be any attraction for capital to go into the business and compete with each other as separate companies with the idea that they could make more than the railroad is now making. It does not seem to me that the 3 per cent profit would attract the necessary millions of capital to operate and maintain those boats, and it does not seem to me, offhand, that an independent operator could make this 3 per cent out of it if the railroads can not make any more than that. Mr. LINCOLN. That would depend very largely upon how the joint through rates are divided. From your statement it would not seem attractive to outside capital, but there may be circumstances there under which the earning power of the steamships is limited and which under operation by independents might indeed be increased. The CHAIRMAN. You are not familiar with the New York situation—I mean with the docking system and the distribution of cargoes, as you have only been there since the 1st of May, are you? Mr. LINCOLN. I am not. The CHAIRMAN. You would not care to express an opinion as to whether the people of New York would get better service if those boats were divorced from the railroad than they are now getting? Mr. LINCOLN. I could not testify as to traffic of the Atlantic coast ports. I am familiar, by reason of my railroad experience, with the Gulf and Lake traffic, because, as an officer of a railroad, I came into contact with this business as a competing line. The CHAIRMAN. Suppose the Pacific Mail Steamship Co. were allowed to build the new boats that Mr. Schwerin has testified that they had intended to build and put on between New York and oriental points via the Panama Canal, and they were allowed to stop at intermediate points between New York and San Francisco, taking on and discharging what local traffic offered, and were put under the jurisdiction of the Interstate Commerce Commission as to the rates that they could charge from port to port-domestic ports-and that all other steamships that were not owned or controlled by railroads were allowed freedom to compete with them.. Do you think it would be dangerous to the people of the country to allow those four steamships to conduct that transaction as I have indicated? Mr. LINCOLN. I do not see the danger, offhand. I do not see how you could place them under the commission and have others independent of the commission. The CHAIRMAN. I do not see it myself. I am looking for somebody that can point it out to me if it exists. I do not understand it. Mr. LINCOLN. I could not explain it. Whereupon, at 5 o'clock and 2 minutes p. m., the committee adjourned until 10 o'clock to-morrow morning, May 21, 1912. TUESDAY, MAY 21, 1912. COMMITTEE ON INTEROCEANIC CANALS, UNITED STATES SENATE, The committee was called to order at 10 o'clock a. m., but, no quorum being present, adjourned until 10 o'clock a. m. Thursday, May 23, 1912. THURSDAY, MAY 23, 1912. COMMITTEE ON INTEROCEANIC CANALS, Washington, D. C. The committee met at 10 o'clock a. m. Present: Senators Brandegee (chairman), Crawford, Bristow, Perkins, Page, Townsend, Johnston, Thornton, and O'Gorman. The CHAIRMAN. Is the counsel of the Newport News Shipbuilding Co. present? Mr. BICKFORD. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You may take the stand. Mr. BICKFORD. I shall not keep the committee more than a very few minutes. 36955-PT 8-12- -6 STATEMENT OF ROBERT GEORGE BICKFORD, OF NEWPORT NEWS, VA. The CHAIRMAN. Will you be kind enough to give the stenographer your full name, residence, and occupation? Mr. BICKFORD. Robert George Bickford, Newport News, Va.; general counsel of the Newport News Shipbuilding & Dry Dock Co. It was not until my arrival in Washington yesterday, Mr. Chairman, that I knew that the chairman had been asked to appoint a time to hear me. I had sent to Washington to ascertain when the committee would be in session, so that I might accommodate my engagements so as to permit me to come here and take my chance at being heard. I wish to say that I was moved to a desire to appear before the committee on account of what I now find to be a misconception. A certain paper which emanated, as I supposed, from this committee, which purported to be a revision of section 11 of the House bill, had been brought indirectly to my attention; and I assumed it was the product of the conferees of this committee; and for that reason I have desired to address myself to the subject. I find now that I was mistaken; and my only apologies to the committee must be that I am utterly unacquainted with matters of this sort, having had very little experience before congressional committees; and therefore for what inconvenience I have caused your committee it only remains now to express a proper degree of contrition. The CHAIRMAN. Well, do you care to make any statement about that matter now that you are here? Mr. BICKFORD. I find that the committee has an abundant number of statements from the gentlemen who actually suffered the things. Lawyers, for the most part, acquire the information from their clients, and tell the committees what they think their clients are going to suffer. I have preferred to leave that to my clients. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wheeler, do you care to make any statement this morning? Mr. WHEELER. Not this morning. The CHAIRMAN. Capt. Dollar, do you care to make a statement? If so, you make take the chair down at the other end of the table. STATEMENT OF CAPT. ROBERT DOLLAR, OF SAN FRANCISCO. The CHAIRMAN. Give the stenographer your full name and residence and occupation. Capt. DOLLAR. My name is Robert Dollar; residence San Francisco, Cal.; I am engaged in the steamship business, operating American and British ships in the Asiatic and also the coastwise trade of the United States. I did not come here prepared to make any statement. I had been requested by the Chamber of Commerce and the Shipowners' Association of San Francisco to come here; but I refused to come; but on urgent telegrams received from them since I left, I came on to tell you what I know of the subject. I think, probably, to bring out the information that you want, it would be better for you to ask me questions rather than that I should make any lengthy statement. I am free to say, however, that I am in favor of free tolls for American ships engaged in the coastwise trade. The CHAIRMAN. Now, Captain, I do not care to ask you any questions. I was told that you wanted to appear before the committee and make a statement. I do not know what you want to say. Anything you wanted to say, you are perfectly free to say. Capt. DOLLAR. I have not any prepared statement to make, Mr. Chairman. Senator TOWNSEND. What do the people that sent you here want you to say? What did they think you knew about it? Capt. DOLLAR. They thought that I knew something of the conditions affecting the American merchant marine; whether it would be an advantage to them to go through the canal free or have to pay tolls. I am very decided in my opinion that they should pay no tolls. Looking at it purely from a shipowner's point of view, I do not think that the shipowners are very much interested whether they pay tolls or whether they do not. It is the dear American public that is going to pay it in any case. The shipowner, if he has to pay a toll, simply adds that to the freight. There is no other way of getting out of it. If the tolls are free the rate of freight from the eastern to the western seaboard will be less. If they have to pay one or two dollars that is simply added to the freight, and the shipowners or the "Ship Trust" as it is called, has no particular interest in it. That is my view of it. As to prohibiting railroad-owned ships from going through the canal, on the face of it I do not think that is right; but I do not think it is right for the Government to permit any corporation or combination of corporations to control the traffic through the canal from one American port to another, or, rather, to crowd out us small fry, small fish. They would have it in their power to do that if they so desired. Senator TOWNSEND. What do you mean by "Ship Trust"? You said that the Ship Trust did not want this, or did not care about it.` Capt. DOLLAR. The so-called Ship Trust-there seems to be a general opinion throughout the country that there is a ship trust, a shipping trust. There is no such thing. The shipping men, unfortunately, are very much divided; they do not work together. Senator TOWNSEND. That is unfortunate, is it? Capt. DOLLAR. That is unfortunate for themselves, for their own pockets. Senator PERKINS. How many ships do you control, Captain? Capt. DOLLAR. Well, I am managing four ships in the Asiatic trade that we own and four steamers in the American trade, and some sailing vessels. Senator PERKINS. You have no combination in your company, have you, Capt. Dollar? Capt. DOLLAR. There is no combination, Senator. Senator PERKINS. As to rates or otherwise? Capt. DOLLAR. As to rates or otherwise; no, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You say "we" own four ships; who are "we"? Capt. DOLLAR. Myself and family and those who are interested with me. The CHAIRMAN. Well, is it a company? Capt. DOLLAR. A corporation; yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. What is the name of it? Capt. DOLLAR. The Dollar Steamship Line and the Robert Dollar Co. |