Government that I would wish, after this | Parliament should be repealed, and that Motion is disposed of, if they see no objec- the Parliament of Canada should have tion, to move for a return of the number power, with the consent of the Crown, to of negroes landed in Brazil and Cuba re- deal with the subject. The right hon. spectively, from the date in 1851 at which Gentleman stated last year very fairly that the last return was made up, to the latest pe- that had been the decision of one Parliariod in 1852 to which information has been ment in Canada, but that a general elecreceived. I am sure the Government can tion had taken place, that the decision of have no objection to grant those returns, the new Assembly might be different, and which will show the extent to which the that they might no longer express that Spanish and Brazilian Governments have wish. For my own part, if the people of adhered to their obligations. Canada are contented with the arrangements made by the Imperial Parliament, it would be very desirable that they should be continued; but if, on the other hand, it was the decided wish of the people of Canada, as expressed by their Parliament and by their representatives, that a different arrangement and distribution should be made of the funds raised for the Clergy Reserves, I think, provided the interests of the present holders should be secured, and no vested interests affected, it is a subject entirely for the people of Canada. I cannot conceive that either the Crown or the people of this country have the smallest interest in wishing to prevent the settlement of that question by the representatives of such an important province as Canada, with its large population, and in the united form it now is. There was a despatch sent out on the subject that seemed to go more into the merits of the question than it was necessary to do, but on which I wish to make no remark. appears that there has been in the new Parliament of Canada a considerable discussion on the subject, which has been transmitted to me in a newspaper, and that a resolution proposed by the Ministers, expressing a wish that an Address should be presented to the Crown, praying that they might have full power with the question, has been carried, I understand, by a majority of 54 to 22. Under these circumstances, I should think that the Government can have no difficulty in introducing a measure in a short time to enable the Parliament of Canada to deal with the subject. As no notice has been taken of it in the Speech from the Throne, I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Colonies if the Government have come to any decision respecting it? MR. MAGAN said, he wished to have an explanation as to what was meant in the Speech from the Throne by the spirit of insubordination and turbulence in Ireland?" The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland had explained the matter as well as he could, and he understood him to say that the phrase had reference to past insubordination and turbulence; but it was placed in the Speech in the present tense, and the Irish Members were exceedingly anxious that the noble Lord the Chief Secretary for Ireland would tell them in that plain language for which the Government were so justly celebrated, according to their own account, what meaning he attached to these words. Did it mean that the people were not ready to submit to the brutal efforts that were used in nearly every county in Ireland by the emissaries and agents of Her Majesty's Government to vote against their own consciences? That was the fact. He did not intend to enter into any lengthened discussion at present; but some other opportunity would offer on which he would call attention to the conduct of the agents of the Government in three counties with which he was connected, and particularly in the county represented by him. He hoped the noble Lord would have no objection to act as the dictionary of the Government, and tell them what was meant by those words to which he had alluded. LORD JOHN RUSSELL: Sir, there are some important subjects referred to in Her Majesty's Speech, of which no notice has been taken-one with regard to the Burmese war, and another with regard to the continuance of the war with the Kafirs at the Cape of Good Hope. There is another subject on which I should wish to ask a question of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Colonies. Some me ago the Parliament of Canada exessed a desire that the Act with regard the Clergy Reserves of the Imperial It SIR JOHN PAKINGTON: I can assure the noble Lord and the House that I am quite sensible, and so are Her Majesty's Government, of the importance of the subject to which he has called my attention. The noble Lord has adverted with perfect accuracy to what fell from me on this sub- MR. HUME said, he wished to refer for ject last Session, and the despatch sent a moment to what had fallen from the noble out to Canada respecting it. The noble Lord the Member for Tiverton (Viscount Lord has also adverted to the proceedings Palmerston) on the subject of the slave that have lately taken place in the new trade. The noble Lord had taken a warmer Parliament in Canada. I believe that on interest in this subject, and had been longer the division which took place, the numbers engaged in endeavouring to prevent that approached very nearly to what the noble traffic, than any other man. He gave him Lord has stated; but it was only one of credit for the object he had in view, and several divisions that took place on the he asked the noble Lord whether the time subject. The resolution that has been had not come when he might, with advanagreed to, and the proceedings of the Ca- tage, bring the whole question before the nadian Parliament, have been forwarded House? We had paid some 900,000l. to by the Governor General, have been re- Spain, and some 400,000l. or 500,000l. ceived, and are now under the considera- to Portugal, on the express condition of tion of Her Majesty's Government. There- their suppressing the slave trade; and he fore, I am not at present prepared to an- thought the noble Lord might, with great nounce definitely the intentions of the Go- propriety, take an early opportunity of vernment; but when a decision is formed stating to the House what our engageit will be made known. The noble Lord ments were with those countries; what having adverted to another subject of great we had paid them; whether any return and general interest-the Kafir war-I had been made for those payments; and regret it is not in my power to communi- what steps ought now to be taken. He cate at this moment intelligence on that wished also, before sitting down, to call subject so decided as I would wish. It is the attention of the Government to a renow nearly a month since any additional quest made by an hon. Member from Irereports have been received; but I am land (Mr. Magan). The hon. Gentleman happy to say that the additional reports we asked a simple question, and courtesy rereceived by the mail in October were cer- quired that it should be answered. tainly of a more satisfactory character was a doubt as to the precise meaning of than any that had been received for a long certain words in the Royal Speech, used period. We have had long experience of with reference to Ireland, and he thought the protracted and tiresome nature of the an answer to the question should be given. war; but, judging from those reports, the war appeared to be gradually dying away and wearing itself out, and we may expect that the next mail may bring us some satisfactory information. SIR DE LACY EVANS said, he thought that information should be afforded them from time to time which would enable that House to judge of the events that were taking place at the Cape, the House not being at present clearly informed as to what objects are contemplated in carrying on the war. One event had occurred on which he begged to congratulate the Government-he meant the arrangement with Mr. Prætorius and the boers who acted in conjunction with him. It was very much to be lamented that that course had not been adopted some years ago, and he should like to know if they might anticipate some amicable arrangement with the other inhabitants of those territories, founded upon similar principles. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would soon be able to lay despatches on the table showing the objects of the war, and the prospects of a final termination of it. There LORD NAAS said, the question put to him by the hon. Member for Westmeath was simply whether he would give an interpretation of a paragraph of Her Majesty's Speech which referred to Ireland. Holding the opinion he did, that that paragraph was perfectly intelligible and clear, he could not add, by any explanation he could give, anything to the clearness of the passage, or to the explanations that that had been already given by his right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General for Ireland. If an assurance on the part of Her Majesty that the Government was prepared to deal in a liberal and generous manner with Irish affairs and interests, did not please or suit hon. Gentlemen opposite, it was not the fault of the Government. MR. HADFIELD begged to call the attention of the House to the paragraph in the Speech which referred to legal reform, and said he must complain of the expense and inconvenience of refusing probates in different parts of the country where property was transferred. He wished to know whether by the recent arrangements one pro bate would serve for the property of testators in all parts of the country? to answer the question of an hon. Mem. ber for an Irish county, and then an answer was reluctantly given to the remark of the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), by the noble Lord the Chief Secretary for Ireland. Being a very plain man himself, he understood plain English according to its ordinary sense and meaning, and when Her Majesty was advised by Her Ministers to speak of "an unhappy spirit of insubordination and turbulence which produces many and aggravates all of the evils which afflict that portion of Her Ma 66 an MR. SIDNEY HERBERT: Sir, I wish to ask a question with reference to part of the Speech on which no information has yet been given. The paragraph in the Speech referring to the difficulties that arose during the last summer with respect to our Colonial fisheries conveys an impression as to the origin of those diffi. culties, and as to the course taken with regard to them, and likewise as to the result likely to ensue from the negotiations, at variance, I think, with the public impres-jesty's dominions," he understood the sions on the subject. Of course, the information in the hands of the Government, on the subject to which this paragraph alludes, would, if produced at once, set at rest any doubts that exist on that point. I gather from the conclusion of the second paragraph that those negotiations are not yet terminated, and in that case, of course, it would not be proper to press the Government to give any information or lay any papers on the table of the House respecting them; but it is important we should know if there be a prospect of an early settlement of the question, and at what period the Government would be enabled to lay on the table of the House the papers and correspondence respecting these negotiations. Queen to mean, and he understood Her Majesty's Ministers to mean, if they meant anything, that there is now existing unhappy spirit of insubordination and turbulence in that part of her dominions,' which seriously increases and aggravates the evils by which they are afflicted. Now, they had no explanation of that language. Were the Members sent from Ireland to that House to understand that it was not the intention of Ministers to propose any measure for the repression of an existing "unhappy spirit of insubordination and turbulence? He rather guessed it from what had been said by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland; but the right hon. and learned Geutleman did not say it very distinctly, nor, indeed, had anything been said very distinctly by any hon. Gentleman who had spoken on the other side of the House. The only Member who spoke out on that side, was an hon. and learned Friend of his, the hon. and learned Gentleman who seconded the Address, and he did come out boldly and frankly with the declaration that he was for free trade. The hon. Gentlemen who came after him did not seem inclined to follow the lead, and they hemmed and hawed, and spoke in such a way that a new Member of the House could not, at all events, understand what they meant. After the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland had spoken, the noble Lord the Chief Secretary for Ireland stood up and expected them to MR. SHEE said, he was unacquainted believe that those words, "insubordinawith the course which was generally adopt- tion and turbulence," were only inserted ed by Government in answering questions in the Speech to make a rounded put to them by independent Members of period; and that the real purport of the House; but when questions were put the sentence was to inform the House in terms of courtesy to Her Majesty's that that which was not to be expected Ministers, he did not think they should from the hon. Gentlemen opposite-namegive such off-hand answers as had been ly, a course of generous and liberal meagiven that evening. First, they refused sures for Ireland was all that was in The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, it will be quite impossible for Her Majesty's Government, in the present state of the question, to lay any papers on the table of the House. I can only repeat what I believe is mentioned in the Speech, that the Government of the United States has agreed to enter into negotiations with us in the most friendly spirit, and in such a way as to lead to increased commercial relations between the two countries. The spirit in which the negotiations between the two Governments have taken place, has been of the most friendly character, and I think the result will prove very satisfactory; but, of course, under these circumstances the House cannot expect that the Government will lay any papers on the table on this subject. 141 Bills of Exchange and Notes {Nov. 12, 1852} tended by this sentence in Her Majesty's clear. Still, however, he must say, that Speech. The right hon. and learned turbulence and insubordination to a cerAttorney General for Ireland and the noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland had both spoken; and he (Mr. Shee) now appealed to the candour of his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department, who was specially charged, as a Member of Her Majesty's Government, with the administration of the affairs of Ireland, and he asked him first, would he get up in that House and say that the words in Her Majesty's Speech to which attention had been called did not mean, yesterday, whatever they meant that day, an existing spirit of insubordination and turbulence in Ireland," which it was the intention of Her Majesty's Ministers to repress? If they did not mean that yesterday, what did they mean? Did hon. Gentlemen opposite intend to tell that House that the Government had advised Her Majesty to insert words of mere insult in the Speech with reference to Her Majesty's subjects in Ireland? Her Majesty had visited that part of Her dominions but a short time ago, and was received in a manner in which She had never been received in this country, notwithstanding the attachment of the people of this country to Her person and family, and the loyalty they had always evinced. He asked his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department if yesterday (whatever they meant that day) those words did not mean that there was an existing spirit of insubordination and turbulence in Ireland, which it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to repress? He wished, secondly, to ask him to state distinctly that they might know the intentions of Government before the Motion of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. C. Villiers) was submitted to the Housewhether Her Majesty's Government intend to propose any coercive measures of any kind, or any measures restrictive of the civil and religious liberties of Her Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects in Ireland? MR. WALPOLE said, that his hon. and learned Friend having pointedly referred to him, he rose to answer the question. He understood his hon. and learned Friend to ask whether by the latter words of the Address the Government meant to say that they intended to bring in any measure to repress the turbulence and insubordination there alluded to. His answer was, that the Government did not, and he hoped that answer was distinct and tain extent did unquestionably exist in Ireland. He did not wish to provoke discussion, yet everybody must be aware that one of the last things which it was necessary for the Government to do before the dissolution of the late Parliament was to renew a Bill for one year for proclaiming certain districts in Ireland, in consequence of there then being counties in Ireland exposed to what might be called turbulence and insubordination, which rendered that Act necessary. In some counties it was still necessary to continue the operation of that Act. But he, for one, should be glad to find that the generous and liberal policy alluded to in the same paragraph of the Queen's Speech, and more pointedly alluded to than the turbulence and insubordination, might have the effect of removing all necessity at no distant period for any of those measures which had peculiarly affected Ireland in consequence of the turbulence and insubordination which had prevailed there. The meaning of the paragraph in the Queen's Speech was both general and particular: general, inasmuch as the Government did not intend to do anything in respect to Ireland of any sort or kind which could be construed as contrary to a generous and liberal policy, taken in the largest sense of the word; and particular, inasmuch as it was intended in the course of the Session to bring in certain measures of a liberal and generous policy towards Ireland, and, among them, a settlement of the whole relations between landlord and tenant, including in that settlement the much-vexed question which was now anxiously discussed in Irelandnamely, compensation for unexhausted improvements. This was the policy which they intended to pursue, and he trusted that it would be responded to by the people of Ireland in the spirit in which it was offered. Report agreed to. BILLS OF EXCHANGE AND NOTES (METROPOLIS) BILL. MR. WALPOLE said, he begged to give notice of his intention to bring in a Bill, which would require the suspension of all the Standing Orders, in order that it might pass through the House on Monday next. The object of the Bill would be to declare that the day appointed for the funeral of the Duke of Wellington should, as regards the payment of bills of exchange and promissory notes, be treated as the "Lord's-day," commonly rence of your Lordships. And if I had called Sunday. From all he could hear, not been convinced of this before, the lanhe believe that if some such provision guage of general eulogy which I heard in were not made, great inconvenience would this House a few days ago would have rebe experienced by the commercial and lieved me from the necessity of addressing banking classes. your Lordships at any length, and would have made me perfectly certain that you would have but one feeling as to the propriety of doing all that you at present can to honour the memory of the late Duke of Wellington in that public funeral which Her Majesty, in anticipation of the wishes of Parliament and the country, has already The House adjourned at Six o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Monday, November 15, 1852. MINUTES.] Took the Oaths.-Several Lords. THE DUKE OF WELLINGTON'S FUNERAL (BILLS OF EXCHANGE AND NOTES) BILL. The EARL of DERBY: My Lords, I have to move the First Reading of a Bill which has been passed by the other House of Parliament under rather peculiar circumstances, which make it necessary that I should ask your Lordships to dispense with your Standing Orders in order that it might be passed as speedily as possible. The Government has received representations on the part of a great number of merchants and commercial men of the city of London, with respect to the great inconvenience that will arise in connexion with the presentation and payment of bills falling due on Thursday next, the day of the Duke of Wellington's funeral, unless some arrangements be made by Parliament. It is proposed, therefore, to enact that Thursday next shall be considered a dies non; and that all bills falling due on that day shall be presented and be payable on Wednesday; but that if these bills are paid before two o'clock on Friday, the parties shall be subjected to no notarial charges arising from the delay. Bill read 1; to be printed; and to be read 2 To-morrow. And Standing Orders Nos. 37 and 38, to be considered, in order to their being dispensed with. MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN-FUNERAL OF THE DUKE OF WELLINGTON. The Queen's Message considered. The EARL of DERBY again rose and said: I have now to ask your Lordships to agree to an Address to Her Majesty in answer to Her Majesty's gracious Message of Friday last, in reference to which I am sure that it is quite unnecessary for me to say a single word, because I am convinced that it will meet with the universal concur "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, to express to Her Majesty the Thanks of this House for Her Majesty's most Gracious Message of Friday last, humbly to thank Her Majesty for having given Directions for the Public Interment of the mortal Remains of His Grace The Duke of Wellington in the Cathedral Church of Saint Paul, and to assure Her Majesty of the cordial Aid and Concurrence of this House in giving to the Ceremony a fitting Degree of Solemnity and Importance.' On Question, agreed to, Nemine Dissentiente. The EARL of DERBY then said: I have now to move the following Resolution: of the Funeral of Arthur Duke of Wellington in "That this House will attend at the Solemnity the Cathedral Church of St. Paul on Thursday next." On Question, agreed to, Nemine Dissentiente. It was also moved— "That a Select Committee be appointed to consider the Circumstances relating to the Attendance of this House and their Place at the Solemnity of the Funeral of Field Marshal the late Duke of Wellington." The DUKE of CLEVELAND said, that he wished to suggest to the First Lord of the Treasury the propriety of giving facilities for the departure and return from the cathedral of St. Paul of those persons who had been officially engaged in the procession and solemnity. He thought it was but reasonable that if those persons were not to return in procession, they should have some priority of departure over those who were present merely as spectators. The EARL of DERBY said, he need hardly assure the noble Duke that the question of the whole of the arrangements connected with the funeral had been a matter of very anxious consideration on the part of the Government, and of those connected with the responsibility (for such it was) of conducting a ceremony of such magnitude; and he had no doubt that pro |