"Why, in old times we should have had some one coming forward and proposing the abolition of some paltry tax which, while it would be no great blow to the revenue, would, individually, give scarcely any relief. Is this the means by which to regenerate imperilled agriculture? Certainly not. What I propose is, that a real sinking fund shall be maintained, which will, in less than ten months, raise Consols above par,

mons which tended to impair the gene- Gentleman had prepared himself to attempt ral credit of the country, and to prevent a similar course. He had hoped that the growth of that facility of monetary the present Chancellor of the Exchequer transactions which prevailed when the re- might have been the successful Minister venue was in a prosperous state. He who might hereafter have rested his claim thought that any Chancellor of the Ex- to public approbation on the ground of chequer abandoned his duty if, for the having effected a larger operation for the sake of repealing a particular tax, or of benefit of his country in this respect than acquiring for the moment the applause of had been accomplished by his most disthose who surrounded him, he forgot what tinguished predecessors. In that speech was due to the higher interests of the which the right hon. Chancellor of the State, and did not always bear in mind Exchequer delivered at Aylesbury, ten that there was a large encumbrance of months was the period prescribed as nedebt, which could only be diminished by cessary by the then proposed Sinking the maintenance and due application of a Fund to raise the public debt to par. surplus revenue. In saying this he was Within ten months that desirable object far from expressing opinions which were might not be accomplished; but he confined to himself and to hon. Gentle- feared, by the course the Government men near him. He had the authority was taking, by snatching at the paltry of the present Chancellor of the Exche- remission of taxation of 2,500,000l., they quer, who, when discussing at Aylesbury would perhaps for ever lose the opporin 1849 the importance of maintaining a tunity of conferring great and permanent large Sinking Fund for the purpose of benefit on the country. The reduction of creating an impression on the debt, and the public debt would have a beneficial supposing the Chancellor to be in posses- effect on all the burdens of the country. sion of a surplus, saidIt would confer still greater benefit on the agricultural, manufacturing, and commercial classes, by placing at their disposal capital at a low rate of interest, and enabling them to pursue their operations with increased activity and enterprise. If he might presume to give an opinion to the House of Commons-having heard from various quarters that the acceptance of half the Malt Tax was more a matter of feeling than of profit-that it was not expected to derive from it that extent of benefit which some would consider compensation for past injury, or to give to the consumer that relief which they all desired to afford-if he might presume to give an opinion, he would say, "instead of giving up that 2,500,000l. of revenue, apply your surplus so as hereafter to render feasible great financial reductions." His great feeling of regret with respect to the Budget which had been announced was that this course had Those were principles in which he (Mr. not been pursued. The right hon. GenGoulburn) cordially concurred, and which tleman opposite seemed to object to dishe regretted that the Chancellor of the cussing the Budget in parts, and in that Exchequer was not now that he had power opinion he had shown that he (Mr. Gouldisposed to carry into effect. The right burn) entirely agreed. If he thought an hon. Gentleman had been pleased, on a attempt was made unwisely to repeal the former night, to speak in favourable terms Malt Tax, he naturally objected to the of the success which attended the mea- particular tax which was proposed as sures that he (Mr. Goulburn) had on two the means of effecting a repeal in itself several occasions brought forward for re- objectionable. He did not deny that it ducing the interest of the public debt; and might be proper, under circumstances he wished sincerely that the right hon. which required it, to impose a House VOL. CXXIII. [THIRD SERIES.]

and thus enable landlords and tenants to borrow

money to apply to their land at 3 per cent interest

instead of four or five."

The right hon. Gentleman, speaking at that time to an assembled multitude of agriculturists, said—

"This is your real remedy--equal taxation and cheap capital. If my recommendations be adopted, the public credit will be maintained; it will give the farmer independence; it will recover from their present state of depression the landlords of the country; they will then obtain capital for the improvement of their estates at a low rate of interest, and if you do not gain that relief which the country has a right to give you, we must consider

what we are next to do."

2 Z

The

Tax, properly distributed and properly mo- | reasons which had induced the Government
dified. He objected last year to the House to propose alterations in the Income Tax;
Tax then proposed, because he thought it and he said, as a noble Lord said early in
was not framed upon the principles on the evening, that they had remedied the
which a House Tax, if imposed, ought to inequalities of the tax in its present shape.
be placed; and he objected equally to the The right hon. Gentleman must have look-
House Tax now proposed, because, though ed upon the Resolutions on the table with
avoiding some of the defects of that of the a very paternal eye if he could consider
right hon. Baronet (Sir C. Wood), it had that they remedied any of the grievances
fallen into others which he (Mr. Goulburn) which had been made the subject of com-
thought essentially fatal to it continuance. plaint. He said, "We have reduced the
But it was not necessary for him to discuss number of exemptions." Yes, by impos-
the substitute, when he objected to the re-ing the tax upon a class of persons with
peal of the tax the produce of which it was
to replace. The right hon. Gentleman had
said that this direct tax was necessary to
complete the scheme propounded by the
Administration of Sir Robert Peel; that
Sir Robert Peel recommended the imposi-
tion of direct taxation upon principles the
same as those on which the present House
Tax was to be supported. Not so. Direct
taxation was introduced by Sir Robert Peel
when indirect taxation had been carried to
its full extent and found unproductive. It
was introduced to make up for a great and
accumulating deficiency; and so far from
the tax now proposed being the completion
of the plan which originated with Sir
Robert Peel, it was one merely made for
the temporary object of affording a relief
which was but partially sought, and was
not likely to be generally beneficial. The
right hon. Gentleman said the House Tax
recommended itself, because there had been
a sacrifice upon the Window Tax, and that
the burden would not exceed that to which
the country had been subjected from ten to
twenty years ago. But it would be well
for him to remember that if there was a tax
which at no distant period had excited the
feelings of the country more than any
other, and given occasion to petitions for
its repeal, it was the House Tax. The
table of the House of Commons was loaded
with such petitions in 1832, 1833, and
1834. It was stated to be more odious
than the income tax. If the Government
should now succeed in imposing it, not-
withstanding the objections to it, and not-
withstanding the absence of any necessity
for imposing it beyond the repeal of half
the Malt Tax, they must be prepared at
no distant period for a repetition of attacks
upon this duty, which, if imposed in the
shape proposed by the right hon. Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer, would at no very
distant day lead to its repeal and to a
further deficiency of revenue. The right
hon. Gentleman had gone in detail into the

respect to whose capacity to bear it there
would be shown to be great doubt when
it should come under discussion here-
after. He said, "We have applied the
tax to the funds in Ireland:" exempt-
ing every class in Ireland but one, they
had rather added to the exemptions than
reduced them. With respect to that par-
ticular class on whom he meant that the
burden of the tax should fall, the right
hon. Gentleman had no foundation for as-
suming that there was anything in the
proceeding of 1842 which justified the im-
position of a tax upon the funds in Ireland
received by residents in Ireland.
principle in the Act of 1842 was, that per-
sons residing in Great Britain should pay
the tax upon any income received by
them in Great Britain, though the pro-
perty might be in Ireland or any other
country; land, professions, trades, and
funds of persons resident in Ireland were
equally exempt. Ireland was exempted
because other taxes were then imposed on
Ireland, which were to be a compensation to
Great Britain for alone bearing the Income
Tax. If the Government selected one par-
ticular class of property in Ireland, and
that the funded property, for this tax, they
would therefore as clearly violate their con-
tract with the public creditor by making
this property alone the subject of taxation,
as they would by the imposition of a sepa-
rate duty on funded property here.
The
right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the
Exchequer said that the right hon. Mem-
ber for the University of Oxford (Mr. Glad-
stone) had argued without reason that the
variation of rates in the schedules would
be a breach of faith with the public ere-
ditor. He (Mr. Goulburn) adhered to that
opinion, and the reasons for it given by the
latter right hon. Member; and, when the
House should arrive at the period for the
discussion of the Income Tax, he thought
he should establish beyond a doubt that
there was a contract with the public cre-

tion, his gratitude would possibly be diminished. Then, it was said, there had been exceeding liberality to the clergy in making a reduction of duty on those who had less than 100l. a year. It was said that the clergyman had a precarious income-an income dependent on his life, uncertain in its duration and that at present he paid the highest rate of duty. But it may be asked why, if his income were precarious, take 100%. for the limit? The man who had 1501. must have an income as precarious as the man who had an income of 100%. One could understand such an arrangement if it were made on the score of charity alone; but when it was made on the ground that the income was precarious, how could such a remission be taken as a principle of legislation? He had thus stated the views he was disposed to entertain with respect to the measures now before the Committee. He objected to the repeal of the Malt Tax,

ditor, confirmed by the uniform decisions it was equally in his power before the of all the Courts to which the question alteration to obtain even a greater reduchad been submitted, preventing the House of Commons from placing upon this species of property a higher rate of duty than was imposed upon other property. The right hon. Gentleman said, "We have made a division between precarious and certain property, and taxed them accordingly.' He (Mr. Goulburn) would tell him what he had done. He had made the funded property of the country, which was thought to be the most secure, the most precarious property, for he had made it dependent on the will of a Minister. If he could by his own authority, upon the construction which he put upon the contract, imagine it lawful to impose onethird more duty upon funded property than upon any other, what might not some future Chancellor of the Exchequer less moderate than he effect? What were pence now might be shillings to-morrow, and what were shillings to-morrow might be pounds in subsequent years, if the country should be weak enough, or the Minister wicked at a time when a revenue was not in a conenough, to impose different rates upon funded and other income. When the question should come on, he thought he could show that, whatever irregularities there might have been, whatever injustice any might suppose to operate in carrying into effect the measure of 1842, the measure now proposed abounded in inequalities ten times worse, and would involve the collection of the tax in inextricable difficulty. With respect to the mode in which it was proposed to estimate the profit of farms, it would be remembered that in 1842 the profit was taken at half the rent, and the tenant had no right to a reduction, nor the Govenment to an increase of that charge; but since then we had given the tenant-farmer the right of coming to the Commissioners at the end of the year and saying, "My profit has not amounted to half my rent, and I am entitled to a reduction ;" and the Commissioners, upon examination of which weighed on his mind more than him and his books, were to abate the sum reckoned as his profit, not to one-third of the rent, but to one fifth or one sixth, or any proportion to which he could show that his profit had fallen. The proposal, with respect to him, then, was perfectly unnecessary. It might go forth to the country that the Government were conferring benefit on the farmer, by estimating his income at so much less than it was estimated at before; but when he knew that

dition to part with that amount. He objected to the Budget, because the whole surplus was derived from an application of money not legitimately made-namely, from the application to annual income of the balances of the Exchequer; because there must be a recurrence of that system of deficiency which it had been the whole of his ambition to put an end to, and which of late years had been entirely avoided. It was on the ground of the ultimate effect on public credit that he could not but view with alarm the proposals which the Government had made. By their proposals they were debarring themselves from the legitimate advantages to which, in the present state of the country, they might fairly look. The Government were gradually weakening the public sense of good faith by spending in the year more than they acquired from the revenue of the year; and, taking into consideration those serious matters

anything relating to a change of the Property and Income Tax, or the House Duty, or the Malt Tax-taking into consideration those several circumstances, he should conclude by humbly imploring the Committee to avoid measures which by impairing the public credit of the country, damaged its best interests, and which, involving all interests, would in the end be as injurious to the agriculturist as it would be to the manufacturer.

VISCOUNT JOCELYN moved the ad- from the income tax, it was not true that journment of the debate.

to be "nil." It was the same on the second occasion; and it appeared that the House resumed;-Committee reported reason was that no account was kept by progress.

House adjourned at a quarter before Irish as distinguished from other property. One o'clock.

commencing April 1851 and April 1853: and also,

"Return of all Sums charged on Dividends and Annuities at the Bank of Ireland payable to Persons not resident in Ireland, in the Years commencing April 1851 and April 1852."

in the attempt, because such an exemption | paid by Persons residing in Great Britain on would not be based on the principle of jusSums drawn from Ireland, in the Two Years tice for whatever taxation was imposed on one portion of the Empire ought to be imposed on all. They were now about to introduce a tax upon the funded property of that country, and upon the recipients of public salaries there. It was perfectly right and just; and he could not see why the Lord Lieutenant, the Lord Chancellor, and the holders of places in Ireland, should be exempted, whilst in this country the annuitant with only 50l. a year, and the tradesman with only 100l. a year, were to be subject to the tax. Now he (the Earl of Wicklow) should wish, for his part, to see the enormous and unjust taxation which at present prevailed in Ireland under the name of the Consolidated Annuities Tax, altogether abolished. There would then be no difficulty whatever in establishing the income tax in Ireland on all descriptions of property, and raising the 400,000l. which Sir Robert Peel estimated as the revenue which would be derived from the stamps and spirit duties, and which, in fact, had raelised but 16,000l. The sum now assessed on Ireland for the consolidated annuities is 250,000l.: that would be probably the proportion of the 400,000l. which would fall upon the land; but at present the consolidated annuity tax is so distributed that the amount is larger just in proportion as the district is poor and unable to bear it; so that, in fact, where the largest sums are payable, there is not only no expectation of levying the tax, but, as he knew, a bill of indemnity was necessarily brought in, partly to exempt the poorer districts of the country from its payment. He was therefore convinced that, if it were shown to Parliament, by the abolition of the consolidated annuity tax, and the imposition of a property tax, an act of justice would be effected, and the revenue increased, it would readily accede to it.

He was anxious to see an equalised system of taxation, similar to that adopted in England, extended to the sister country; and if that were done in the manner he had taken the liberty of suggesting, he had no doubt the result would prove highly beneficial to the interests of that country, and at the same time materially tend to increase the revenue of the Empire at large, He thought this would be the best opportunity of effecting such an object, and that it would be satisfactory to this country and to Ireland. The noble Earl concluded by moving, for a

"Return of the Amount of Property Tax

Ordered to be laid before the House. The EARL of DERBY: I can have no objection, on the part of Her Majesty's Government, to lay before your Lordships the papers which have been moved for by the noble Earl, if, indeed, the return will afford him the information which he seems to expect it will. I can only regret that the noble Earl did not give me the precise object he had in view in making this Motion, in order that I might have ascertained if the mode in which the papers are now made out was calculated to answer that object. My own impression is that the Income-tax papers remain precisely on the same footing as they did when the former returns he moved for were made, and that, consequently, he will not find any distinction between incomes derived from Irish property and those derived from colonial property, and the proceeds of the Income Tax from Irish property will still be returned as nil. But I only speak from a vague recollection of the Income-tax papers which have been presented to me for my signature. Not having received a shilling from my Irish property for four or five yearson the contrary, the balance being considerably on the other side-and finding myself obliged to make remittances of money to that country, I was compelled to return nil. There is no objection, however, to produce the returns, and I shall be glad to give the information which the noble Earl desires; but I must be excused if I decline entering into the policy of charging the Income Tax on Ireland, or into the financial propositions of the Government now before the other House of Parliament. There will be abundant time for the discussion of all the details arising out of the Income Tax when the measures which have been submitted to the other House of Parliament come before your Lordships in detail in the shape of a Bill. The noble Earl has correctly stated the principles which he conceives to be involved in the various measures that are now under the consideration of Parliament, and that have been brought forward by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He correctly states, that according to those measures, it being deemed expedient to diminish to a considerable extent the amount and pressure of indirect taxation, it follows as a necessary conse