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636. And neces

cessarily the vegsel to be sent there wonld have to be very large in order to encounter the Atlantic weather P-Yes.

637. (Chairman.) Do you say you were about eight days out in one case ? - It was about eight days from the time of the report of the vessel being sent to the Board of Trade I believe, or to the collector of customs. It comes to the Board of Trade and from the Board of Trade to Trinity House and down to me at Yarmouth and then I have to get communication with steam vessel if she is away.

638. Did you succeed in firding her —No, I believe it was over on the other side by that time—it mnst have been.

639. Have you experienced much difficulty in finding derelicts that you have been sent to look for P-I should think we only find one out of three.

640. Do you attribute that to their drifting or to their sinking -To their drifting I should think.

641. (Sir George Nares.) Have you given us any information about the “ Maron"

that was floating between Aldbro' and Orfordness in September 1891. Do you remember that case P-No. Did she go ashore !

612. The return says she was floating and dispersed. --Yes, I am aware of that, but I have no information here.

643. How was it dispersed P—By cotton-powder. I was on duty in the Harwich district at the time. It came ashore and floated off again ; we then towed her ashore again and dispersed her with cotton-powder.

644. What was her cargo P-I cannot say whether she had cargo or ballast. It did not cost much to disperse her.

645. In dispersing a vessel like that, how are you sure she has not been scuttled ; you do not take that into consideration probably ?—We do not take that into consideration. Generally speaking, there is very little of them to be seen unless they are not loaded, and even then they do not float very high out of water.

616. Can you tell us anything about the “ Vandallie” in September 1892, near the Leman and (wer, which was a dismasted derelict P-No; we have done nothing there. I believe she went over to the other side from what I recollect of her.

647. A vessel abandoned near the Goodwins would not be within your district, would it 2-No.

648. (Sir Evan MacGregor.) There was one witness who suggested dealing with derelicts by casting paraffin on them and burning them ?-I am afraid they would be too much saturated with water. They would not float high enough out of the water.

64€0. Is the powder you use named cotton-powder ? -Yes.

649. (Chairman.) Now, will you give us cases of towage 2–There is one instance in 1881 as to towage of the water-logged barque“ Æolus,” laden with ice. The masts were gone and she was found about 14 miles S.E. by S. off Southwold at 9 a.m. on September 6th. There was too much sea to board her, and we lay by her till 6 p.m., when the sea having moderated we got a hawser fast, and showed the regulation lights at night. On

the 7th, at 5.45 a.m. we proceeded with the wreck in Mr. J. Thorp. tow and at 10.50 we beached her at Southwold in four fathoms of water. We salved her starboard anchor and 27 April 1894, both cables, and at sunset we anchored and guarded the wreck with regulation lights. On the 8th we towed her close in shore and ran her anchor away to secure her. Afterwards we cleared away her spars and sails. We lay by the wreck on the 9th and 10th, and on the 11th she drove ashore and broke up. The ice melted, of course. That is one case of towage and the time occupied was 138 hours. Another case was in 1883 of a derelict brig named the “ Uhla,” which was loaded with deals. The mast was standing but the bottom was knocked out. She had been ashore and her chains were dragging on the bottom. We cut them with charges of tonite, and took her in tow at 3.10 p.m. on the 9th December, and arrived at Southwold at 1.50 p.m. on the 10th. At that time there was too much gwell to beach her and on the 11th, with the assistance of a tug, we beached her at Southwold at 5.35 p.m., and got her anchor ashore and secured her. On the 12th we returned to Yarmouth, but a heavy gale from the N.W. drove the wreck off the beach breaking the fluke of her anchor. The vessel went off, and we had to go out on the 13th, and eventually we beached her at Yarmouth. The time we were employed altogether was about 101 hours. The cargo in the vessel was sold and the surplus was handed over to the underwriters after paying expenses. That is my experience with floating wrecks. As to the removal of spars, the spars dealt with farthest away from the land were vessels' masts found floating 99 miles E. of Flamborough Head. That is the greatest distance at which we have picked up spars or dealt with them. We were employed for 30 hours and the time of picking them up only occupied 1 hour and 20 minutos. In another case we dealt with a vessel's masts near Brown Ridges, about 45 miles E. by S. of the Corton Lightship, that is the greatest distance at which we have recovered spars from a sunken vessel.

650. When you talk of spars being removed from sunken wrecks, does that mean you took them out BYes, and after a time they came heels up in deep water, so that we could remove them. The hull was no danger to navigation.

651. You have mentioned getting hold of these wrecks and towing them. Do you think that would be possible on any large scale in the Atlantic P-No, they are very difficult to handle, and it is hard work. The only thing you can do is to get hold of them and watch your opportunity with the tide, and drag them in athwart the tide a little. It is very hard work to deal with them in towing, and you have a difficulty in handling the vessel, and you cannot do it unless the weather is very fine.

652. It is only in very favourable circumstances that you can succeed in towing them P_Yes.

653. And in very bad weather what do you do P_We should shift the hawsers and ride by her as long as possible if we could not tow it. You might always ride by a wreck to the leeward of her, because the wreck acts as a breakwater.

[blocks in formation]

* Cost of removal subsequently stated as £180.

Deficit

tal “Uhla.”-Paid expenses, and £400 returned to Owners.

Adjourned till Tuesday next at 12 o'clock.

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REAR-ADMIRAL LORD WALTER KERR'IN THE CHAIR.
Sir EVAN MACGREGOR, K.O.B.

C. CECIL TREVOR, Esq., C.B.
Sir GEORGE NARES, K.C.B., F.R.S.

Captain W. J. L. WHARTON, R.N., F.R.S.

J. WADDON MARTYN, Esq., Secretary

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Have you

Captain Henry PARSELL called and examined.
654. (Chairman.) I think you are the commander of 666. Have you ever struck ice wheñ your vessels
the " Majestic,” one of the White Star Line?-Yes, the crossed P-No, I have never struck ice.
armed cruiser Majestic.

667. Have you ever found yourself in the neighbour.
650. And you have had a long experience of Atlantic hood of ice P-I have been in a field of ice as much as
navigation ---Yes, I have had a pretty fair experience, six or eight hours together, and I have seen icebergs,
nearly 20 years altogether.

a great number of icebergs.
656. It has been principally on that line in the North 668. Do you slow down ?-Yes, we invariably, in the
Atlantic ?-Yes, principally on that line; I have been ice region before dark, 'slow the ship down.
23 years in the service of the White Star Line.

669. You, of course, have talked over the matter a
I began in the Atlantic trade in this service, and thom
was removed to the Pacific, and was running there for

good deal with the other captains of the White Star
four to five years, and then returned to the Atlantic

Line. Can you speak from their experience at all witb in 1878.

regard to both seeing and striking derelicts ?-No, I

have not talked the watter over'; I did not know any. 657. I suppose you know that the objeot of this ng about this Committee's inquiry until I arrived Committee is to inquire into the danger to navigation from New York last Wednesday, so that I have come from floating derelicts P-Yes.

totally nnprepared. If I had had more notice I shonld
658. Would you give us the result of any experience certainly have compared notes with the others. 1 I only
you have with regard to the danger P-I think, as near heard of this thing last Wednesday when I arrived, and
as I can recollect, I have seen in that time six or seven

it took me rather by surprise.
derelicts floating in the Atlantic. Here is a sketch of 670. Now, with reference to any derelicts you have
on of them which I will hand in (handing in the same). actually seen, supposing you had gone over them, do
Thot is one that I saw from the “ Britannic," named

yon think that the" Majestic would have been anything
the “ Omen"; that is one of the best of them. I

the worse P--It would depend, of course, iu a great remember once seeing a vessel bottom up; she

measure upon the derelict itself; there are certain cir. presumably a cotton-laden ship.

cumstances in which it might hurt the " Majestic” very 659. Could you give us an account of each of the much indeed. Supposing

she was on the top of a sea derelicts you have seen in turn, with the date, and as or rising on sea and striking a derelict, there near as possible, the whereabouts of them.

would be the buoyancy of the derelict to press under
got that P—No, I have not unfortunately. They have

the water, and rolling along underneath our bottom,
been reported at the time to the Company, and I think it would be very apt to tear the bottom open.
it would be very difficult to get at that because I have

671. That of course refers to a vessel.
not got any record of them.

idea as to the damage likely to be done by floating spars
660. Could you tell us approximately between what or baulks of timber P-I do not think that any timbers
years it was-through what interval of years have you can do any harm because the displacement wave always
seen those six or seven derelicts P—The entire period has a tendency to throw tbem away from a ship. I
that I have been crossing, and I know that I have gone think the displacement wave of the Majestic” is quite
sometimes more than a year's interval between them ; strong enough to throw off any objects; in fact I have
unfortunately we have kept no record of the position watcheđ them thrown off from the ship.
or the number.

672. Do you think that though they might not hurt
661. Can you give us roughly where you saw them,

Majestic ” they might hurt smaller vessels |_We
I mean in what part of the Atlantic ?--I can do that, had a very singular instauce 12 months gone January ;
I think; two were seen within about 300 or 400 miles of

we had been going along with a south-west wind and a
the Fastnet, and two about mid-Atlantic, and the others

beam sea, we had one of our orlop deck ports stoved in; from 50 to 68 W.

the port was well secured, because I saw it myself, and 662. With regard to those, you have put in a sketch it was backed with wbat we call a dummy, and that of one with her masts standing P.--Yes, that is the only port, although it is one of about 80 along the side, was one that I have a sketch of.

stoved right in. The glass was broken into fragments, 663. What were the conditions of the others ; I mean

the dummy was broken in two pieces, laid right over, by that, were they submerged or bottom up?- The

a large quantity of water got into the baggage room ship that I saw bottom up was floating with the bottom

through the broken port, and there was a considerable of the ship awash from the turn of the bilge.

amount of damage. At the time that that was done,

or assumed to be done, I saw big planks or deals from
664. And what about the others ?-One was a fore- a supposed deck load floating by the ship, and pre-
and-aft schooner ; she was almost awash with the sumably one of those had struck that port and broken
water, and the main-mast was broken off below the

in. It is a most singular thing, and I have never seen
cross-trees. The other was a brigantine which was it before or since.
afterwards towed into Queenstown ; she was reported
several times, I think five or six times. About the

673. What was the thickness of the port ?—The glass
rest I do not think that my memory

would be about an inch thick. sufficiently to give a description of them.

674. It was a glass port ?—But covered with an iron 665. Did you ever strike any of them ?--I never struck dummy screwed down over the top of it; it was

covered with more than a quarter of an inch, nearly half

Have you any

the "

serves

me

one.

case.

Captain H. Parsell.

1 May 1894.

be so.

the ship

or

an inch. The dummy made of cast-iron securely mentioned it is dangerous, that is a very exceptional screwed, was broken and turned right back, and the

I do not say that a log floating on the water is glass smaslied into small pieces.

not dangerous, but I have seen deals and logs and 675. It looks as if this glass scuttle, or whatever it timber conting to a ship without any injury to the ship, was, was actually rammed by the spar?-It seemed to and they have always gone away from her. Supposing

a ship is in a field of ice, which is very similar, you

will see that the ice never falls in upon the propeller of 676. Did you see the spar P—We saw a part of the planks floating by the ship, that is what started the idea seeing those planks floating by the ship. The

690. You talked ahout a number of vesseis lost from manner in which the port was broken and the glass unknown causes, do not you think that ice 18 much showed that it could not be broken except by a

more likely to be an unknown cause than a derelict tremendous blow delivered very suddenly.

I do not. These things occur when there is no ice or

when ice has not been reported, and we have every 677. Then that points to danger irom floating spars

reason to believe that there is no ice on the track; you of timber P-Yes, that is a point of danger when the sea is on the broadside of the ship. It is quite possible

see we have only got one period of the year when there

is ice on the track. if you watch it carefully; there are two waves at times, one wave falls off and presses objects from the ship, 691. I suppose you will adinit that if a vessel rung but there is at intervals a wave of the prevailing sea into the ice, the effect apon the vessel would be very that overcomes that. I have watched it often,

much more disastrous than if she ran into a floating

derelict ?-Experience is the surest guide in that 678. I can understand the broadside wave and the

respect. We know very well that two or three vessels blow of a floating body pressing very heavily against

have gone into icebergs, notably the' “ Arizona”; she the side -Yes, the disappearance of strong and well

ran in full speed end-on, and she had 30 feet of her bow found ships must have a cause of some kind, and I

cut off'; only as far as the first water-tight compartment, consider that the most probable cause is that of some

fortunately. ünknown danger beneath or on the surface of the water, and I think it only reasonable that every available

692. But would you anticipate 'a tremendous hole means of saving life and property should be tried with made in the bow by striking a derelict - It is not a view of discovering what that cause is.

unusual for a ship to be almost in a sinking condition

through striking an iceberg. I believe there are some 679. Have you any practical suggestion to make as

instances known; I do not remember them for the to how the danger could be guarded against ?-I think,

moment; I should have made a note of all those for instance, take a derelict like the one on the drawing things at the time had I known, but I am sure there I have just passed in, we will suppose that is floating on

have been at least two ships almost abandoned through the water ; that vessel was reported by several ships at

striking icebergs. Then there is one of the German the time, I know by half-a-dozen steamers in that

steamers, the Augusta Victoria

“ Furst case it would be very easy to find her; it would be very

Bismarck.”—I do not know which, it was on her first easy for a man-of-war to find her, or a vessel assigned

voyage-collided with icebergs. I know that some of to that duty; of course there would be very great

the plates in the run were started. difficulty, and it would be almost impossible to keep

693. All that points to the great danger of ice if tho exploring the ocean.

ship happens to be struck. In your experience have 680. Given as a matter of argument that she is easy

you had more authenticated cases of vessels striking to find, what would you then suggest ?--That would

ico than striking derelicts P-I certainly have heard of depend entirely upon the conditions.

more cases of striking icebergs than derelicts. 631. Given such a wreck as you see with her masts

694. What we are very anxious to get hold of are standing, what would you suggest ?–That wreck could

authenticated cases of collision with floating derelicts, very well be towed, provided it were not too far-that

and so far we have not heard of very many. There wreck could be very well towed into a place of safety has been a memorial signed very largely by masters and salved.

and captains of vessels asking for an inquiry, but I 682. (Mr. Trevor.) From the middle of the Atlantic? think that is not from any known dangers or any - That ship would not be far from Newfoundland. I actual experienced dangers, but rather from the idea do not mean to tow her to England.

that there may be a danger ?--Yes. I suppose that it is 683. You do not give the position in which she was

suggested by the fact of vessels disappearing without Been. Assuming that she was 1,000 miles from either New

any well-assigned causes. York or the Fastnet would not towing a thousand miles 695. Quite, and it is assumed that derelicts are the be rather a long job?-Towing a thousand miles would,

cause ?--It is assumed that derelicts are the cause. but you would have Newfoundland, and that would not

696. Though without any actual knowledge P---It is be the half of that distance from the ship.

assumed, I think, with very strong probability. 684. (Chairman.) If she was in mid-Atlantic you 697. (Sir Evan MacGregor.) I think you were one would have a long way to tow her R-Yes. I

of those who headed the petition to Her Majesty's 685. (Mr. Trevor.) Assuming that she was in mid- Government and the United States Government P--Yes, Atlantic

, there is nothing on this drawing to show where signed the petition. she had been seen, but assuming that it was in mid- 698. And your suggestion is to employ a special Atlantic, what would you suggest P-I could get the vessel, I think you stated ?-I do not think I have latitude and longitude of that derelict.

any suggestion to make because the Government 686. (Chairman.) Of course she does not stay still,

will decide upon the best means; it might be a vessel she moves her place pretty rapidly P--Yes, of course

from the North American Squadron which would that would depend upon whether she was worth

undertake it, or it might be a special vessel, towing, but the best thing would be to blow her up, 699. Supposing it to be a special vessel, what should she would not be nearly so dangerous if she were blown you consider would be a good year's work: How up, as floating about in that way.

many derelicts would you be satisfied with ? How 687. Let us change the ground, and say that you

many derelicts should she be likely to deal with Phave got a submerged derelict to deal with, bottom up,

That is such an exceedingly uncertain quantity ; it where you cannot see her, what do you suggest then?

would depend in a great measure upon, first of all, the To destroy her in the best manner possible.

timber trade-they are mostly timber vessels-being

old worn-out ships that carry the timber. It is not the 688. That is just what has puzzled generations to good ship that becomes a derelict; they are those know, how to destroy a derelict. If you could give us vessels that have done their legitimate work in other any practical suggestion for carrying it out, we should trades and which have been sold to either Norway or be very much obliged to you P-If the derelict could

Sweden, and that is a question that it is almost, in not be destroyed, she would have to remain where she fact it is almost impossible to enter into. I could Was, but is it impossible to destroy a vessel with dynamite?

not even form an idea of the number of derelicts that

have been seen at present on the Atlantic during the 689. It has always been held that if you break a

year; but I certainly could very soon find out from vessel up, especially a vessel laden with "lumber, you

the Hydrographer's Office in New York, and I would add very much to the danger by multiplying the

be very happy to get any information for you on my Wreckage, and that is a greater danger to navigation

return to New York, from the Hydrographer's Office. than one single derelict P-'I do not think so, because I 700. (Mr. Trevor.) Why go to New York -Well, you think a log of timber, while in the case I have just see, there is a chart there. The American Government

1

Caplain
H, Parsell.

1 May 1894.

a

me.

take so much more interest in meteorology and things 716. When you say that the United States are taking connected with the Atlantic.

more interest in these subjects, it must be in connection 701. Than our Government P-Yes, than we do.

with some other country. What is the other country? Is There is the proof; there is that chart; you can go back

she taking more interest in it than Great Britain P-I with that chart issued by the American Government

think that you have rather misunderstood me. I meant for 15 or 20 years, and that chart shows the derelicts

with regard to such works as the chart and reports; I floating on the Atlantic.

do not mean to say in sounding or exploring. We

have nou issued anything to correspond with that chart 702. (Sir Evan MacGregor.) What steps have the which is before you now. American Government taken to show that they take so much interest in this question?—They have not yet,

717. On that chart, which is a monthly chart, there but they are seriously talking of removing derelicts

are a great number of sunken wrecks on the coasts of from the ocean.

the United States ?-Yes.

718. Do you know of a siugle sunken wreck on 703. (Mr. Trevor.) You mean from their own coasts ? the British coasts dangerous to navigation at the --I think credit should be given where credit is due.

present moment P-I do not. 704. (Sir Evan MacGregor.) How do you arrive at 719. Would you be surprised to hear that there is not that knowledge—that they are going to do something ?

one;

that we have evidence that there is not one ?-I -Simply by report from the Hydrographer's Office in

suppose

that
you

have evidence. Within wbat limits New York that they are entertaining the idea. I do

do you mean i not say that they are going to do it.

720. We have evidence that immediately any sunken 705. To remove derelicts from their own coasts, is it

wreck or floating wreck is within a reasonable distance not ?-1 believe they intend to extend their care over of the shores of Great Britain, the lighthouse authorities the entire route.

send out at once and search for it ; and actually within 706. Supposing you do see a derelict, do you make the last five years, through their instrumentality, 14 any report when you come to the end of the voyage, have been towed into harbours, for instance: 40 have or should you -We always report.

been searched for but not found. I only put it forward 707. To whom -We report to the Company in our

for you to see that there is something going on off the

British coasts that is not generally known R-I am abstract.

quite aware; I suppose that if we limit it to 708. Only to the Company |--Only to the Company. distance of 20 miles off the British coast that every 709. Then there would be considerable delay --The

effort is made to remove obstructions to navigation. abstract is always posted in Lloyd's room and the 721. It would be news to you that some of these derelict would be known. And not only do we do that, vessels have been searched for 100 miles off p_That but supposing I pass one on the passage out, imme- would be the extreme limit. diately we arrive in New York the position of that derelict is cabled over to our office in Liverpool; it is

722. You say that you know pretty well within 20 then posted in Lloyd's rooms by the orders of the

miles ; it would be news to you to know that they managers of the Company, and we have it posted up

sometimes go out 100 miles |--Yes, that is news to in our office, and we are all obliged to initial that report. An iceberg or a derelict or any obstacle that 723. Would it be news to you that sometimes men-ofis seen is cabled over at the Company's expense, and war are sent out on special cases P-I know there have it costs us a great deal every year to do that.

been cases of valuable ships reported broken down. I 710. Do you receive this wreck chart ?-We receive

have known a man-of-war taking out provisions to ships the United States wreck chart.

We receive a very

before now. large amount of data issned every month; we have a 724. We must not take it that Great Britain is doing regular printed catalogue, and every iceberg and every nothing P--I said that the United States was doing derelict and every obstruction that has been seen on more in sending out papers. I would be sorry to the route between New York and this country, in fact, admit anything against my own country, and putting on all the American coast.

the United States before it. 711. Then is any practical use made of this chart ?-- 725. Supposing the work of Great Britain is extended, Certainly. I always have that chart before me when do you think it would be a practical thing to keep a returning and sailing over the ocean. I take that chart, vessel patrolling the North Atlantic to search for and I consider that it is a very great guide, and an derelicts? Do you think she would ever see one, when exceedingly great advantage to me. It tells me the you have only seen six or seven in the course of limit of fog reported, every derelict on the ocean, and 20 years. I do not mean to send out specially to look almost every iceberg seen. It is issued on the first of after derelicts, but to keep patrolling and looking for every month.

derelicts. You say you have only seen six or seven 712. But then what is the practical effect with

in 20 years: now do you really think that this vessel

would see more P-I do not think she would see more. regard to the derelict P-The practical effect with regard to the derelict. You are aware that the explora- 720. How far was this derelict off that you saw from tion of the Atlantic began with the “ Lightning”and the the “Britannic”P_She was quite close to. “Challenger.” They told us the sets of the current,

727. Then you think in a case of that kind that it otice on that chart you will see the posi

would be reasonable to take some steps to endeavour to tion of the derelict and the line that she follows; a

find a well-known vessel like that?-I do.
very good idea can be formed from that.
713. But I meant what particular steps are you able

728. And that that kind of vessel might be found P.

I think so. to take on account of that knowledge P You do not stop or go slow at night when you are near the sup- 729. What would you give as the length of life of an posed position of the derelict--you do not really make ordinary derelict in the rough weather of the North any difference R-Of course I know that this was in a Atlantic, not taking a timber-laden ship?—Well, you certain position at a certain date. I see how far that see, that is one of those questions that no mere supposition was from our crack, and it must be somewhere near our could settle, and you have no experience to guide you, track because we all have specified tracks, at least the Take, for instance, this vessel, I do not know if I leading lines have specified tracks. I know that if a remember htly, but I think that vessel was spoken derelict is reported at a certain date, that when I get continuously for some three or four months after I saw there it will not be there ; it will be out of my way, her first. I am alınost sure of it, and you see that is in going upon the old principle of steering for a doubtful

the summer in July. At that season of the year that danger.

ship might drift about for a year. 714. (Sir George Nares). You mentioned about the 730. But would not the seas break on board of her! United States going to extend their work in clearing - She is lying here as you see her now. the ocean. Do you know that they are clearing their own shores of derelicts or sunken wrecks P_That I am

731. But supposing the “Majestic” were lying like not prepared to say, nor am I prepared to say that they

that, would not seas break on board of you --No, I do are going to do it, but I know that it is under

not think so. I am sure they would not. contemplation to do it.

732. Not at that moment, but taking the rough 715. Do you know what has been done for the last weather of the North Atlantic, you would not like to 20 years on the British coast in that direction P-No, I lie in the "

Majestic ” for a month in the Atlantic do not.

without moving -At that season of the year the North

and if you

Captain H. Parsell.

1 May 1894.

line of route, but I know this vessel went off with the idea of picking her up, and succeeded in finding her.

748. (Mr. Trevor.) You said that the Board of Trade's Monthly Summary is given to you at the beginning of each voyage P-Yes.

749. Do you think that gives you useful information ? .--Yes, undoubtedly it does.

750. Is it about equivalent to the United States chart in utility P-It is, excepting that the printed matter is not so good as the graphic description of the American chart.

751. But still the seaman can put his written information on to his chart very easily in his own mind ?Yes.

752. And, therefore, the monthly summary of the Board of Trade is nearly equivalent to the United States chart P—Yes, nearly equivalent.

753. Therefore, with the two, you think you have got the guide to all the dangers that you require P--I think

The Board of Trade Monthly Summary is chiefly devoted to the buoyage and lights.

754. But I am speaking now, of course, on the question of derelicts; it gives you every derelict that has been reported in this country P_Yes.

755. And the United States chart gives every derelict that has been reported in the United States ? Yes.

756. Therefore, between the two you get a very large amount of information ?-We do get a very large amount of information, and very valuable information too.

757. I think you told us that, although it was necessary, from your point of view, that whoever is to undertake this duty should patrol the North Atlantic, it was not so necessary to patrol the route by the Mediterranean and by the Coast of Portugal, on account of the prevailing winds sending anything on shore ?—I merely said that the presumption was that those things should be taken into consideration in considering the necessity for patrolling that part of the

80.

ocean.

Atlantic is pretty calm, especially if she drives down between the trade winds.

733. I did not ask you about calm weather, I am speaking of the route between England and New York:-Well, if a derelict were there in the winter the Atlantic rollers wonld very soon smash her up.

734. Two days ago there was news of a vessel on her bear ends, a four-masted barque, I think, laden with. coal? - Yes

735. How long would a vessel remain like that before the sea drives in ber hatches and sends her to the bottom ?-That vessel was practically sinking when the crew left her. I looked into all the details of that. She shifted her cargo and put her lee rail under water; it was only a question of time, for she was laden with coal, and bound to founder.

736. What would be the ordinary life of a vessel coming to grief in that way, a week ?—I would not giv) her 48 hours.

737. Therefore, you would make a special case of special derelicts:-Yes, a special case of special derelicts, you have to come to this.

As I believe I have said before, the principal number are those timber-laden ships.

738. In the statistics which we have of the derelicts and floating timber that have been struck by British vessels in the last three years, there have been 103 cases all over the world, and it comes out that in the North Sea, away from our coatt, 16 logs of wood or derelicts have been struck, but on the North Atlantic track route only 8, so that if responsibility is to come on the Government to undertake patrolling any sea we must also go to other seas than the North Atlantic PThe same thing applies to the North Atlantic as across to the Straits of Gibraltar.

739. Precisely, where there is a larger trade than crossing the Atlantic to New York P--Not a larger trade.

740. Surely there is a larger trade passing down the coast of Portugal P-Yes. I am speaking of the exclusively American trade. Of course if you take into consideration the trade of the Suez Canal it is much more.

741. If Great Britain undertakes to patrol one sea she must patrol several where there is equally large trade. You rather confine it to the one route, the North Atlantic?-Well, I think there is not the necessity to explore that coast. I have some experience of the coast of Portugal, the Straits of Gibraltar and Suez also, and considering that vessels keep very near the coast and that the prevailing direction of the wind and current drives everything on to ihat coast, I do not think there is the necessity for patrolling that part of the ocean as much as the route that we follow.

742. Yon keep such a splendid look-out now, it is impossible for you to take extra precautions, because you have been told of the derelict by the chart P-To keep a more vigilant look-out than we do is impossible. We have a lock-out continually, consisting of two men on the foremast and the officer on the bridge.

743. You need not go into the particulars. What I was aiming at was that the chart partly frightens you, bat it cannot help you to get out of the way P—It cannot help us to get out of the way at all. The great value of the chart is to give us an idea what derelicts have done on a previous chart and what they are doing on this chart, and we are always comparing the one chart with the one of one or two months previously, and we are speculating on the probable drift of those derelicts.

744. I suppose when you leave Great Britain you have presented to you at the Custom House the Board of Trade Notice to Mariners, a monthly summary, and there they warn you about derelicts much in the same way as that American chart does ?-Yes, any known danger on the route. There have been instances, in fact several, of, say, a steamer broken down. I know one instance of one of our own being broken down, and other steamers starting off from the Fastnet, steering for her, finding her, and picking her up. She did not tow her back because one of our other steamers had fallen in with her.

745. She was completely broken down ?-She was a whole week; I think, 10 days.

746. Was she making way through the water ?--Yes, slowly.

747. With some sails, and therefore keeping on the line of route ? —She kept as well as she could on her

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758. Therefore, on the whole, you thought it was not 80 necessary to patrol the route to the Mediterranean as the route to New York; that was the tendency of your evidence ?—That was the tendency.

759. What should you say about the North Sea and the trade to the Baltic?- I do not know anything about the North Sea ; it is so many years since I was in the North Sea ; I have not been in the North Sea for about 45 years.

760. But still is not it conceivable that, if there aro derelicts in the North Atlantic, there might also be derelicts in the North Sea ?-It is quite probable that there would be derelicts. The question then would arise, “ Do we have similar casualties in the North Sea to those that we have in the North Atlantic.”

761. There are a good many reported, but my object in asking the question was this, that if one ocean is to be looked after, must you neglect all the others ?I should think that a route requires supervision specially in proportion to the very vast amount of human life that is carried over it. You see there is more life carried across this route over the Atlantic than any

other route in the world. 762. More than to India and Australia: _The emigration to the Uuited States certainly exceeds that of every other country in the world, and consequently it must exceed tbat of Australia.

763. The emigration is only one passage; it is not the continual journeying backwards and forwards : Yes, there is the continual going backwards and forwards. I am sure I know very well, in fact I am positive, that nearly 45 per cent of the numbers return across the Atlantic in ordinary times.

764. I will take another part of the subject. You told us very properly that you would like submerged derelicts destroyed in the best way possible P-Yes.

765. Could you give us any idea from your own views, what is the best mode of destruction of the derelict when you come to it?--As I said before, the best way would to bl her up by some explosive. That would depend entirely upon the ship herself. Now I should think that it is not impossible to destroy a derelict with our modern appliances, no matter although she was awash.

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