1041. You have stated that during that time you never came across any derelicts ?-I never saw a sign of a derelict.

1012. And these cruises were made at slow speed, if I remember right?-About five knots.

1043-4. Have you seen much floating wreckage in the course of your time ?-I have seen a good deal lately. I have seen more lately than I have in the old days.

1045. Do you think that that wreckage was of a nature that would have damaged a merchant screwsteamer?-It would have damaged it if it had struck the screw of the vessel; several of the baulks would have broken the screw blades, and if end on, they might have started a plate if the steamer was going

fast, but these must be exceptionally large baulks; the smaller ones are a sort of planks only, which would be no danger at all.

1046. Do you think that it is easy or likely that a floating baulk would get at the screw?-Not very likely.

1047. You think the tendency of the wave would be to throw it off the ship; or would it be the reverse ?I think the ship striking it would throw it off probably; it would not clear it of a paddle, but certainly it would of the ordinary screw.

1048. (Captain Wharton.) If there was strong wind on the beam, and the baulk went along the lee side, might it not be drawn into the screw ?-It is possible, I think.

1049. (Chairman.) Are you in command of the Martello"?—Yes.

1050. Of what company ?-The Wilson line.

1051. Where are you now running to P-To New York.

1052. How long have you been running in that line ? -About 18 years.

1053. Have you commanded a ship during that time? --I have commanded now for 12 years.

1054. Can you give us, approximately, how many Voyages you have made ?-I could not exactly, but about an average of eight voyages a year.

1055. Can you give us any occasions, say during that time, when you have come across either floating derelicts or wreckage?-I have come across them several times, but I could not name the times any farther than having reported them at the time.

1056. Can you give us approximately how many you have seen ?-I should say about 20.

1057. Are those all vessels, or does that include spars P-Vessels alone, without spars.

1058. Floating ?-Floating.

1059. Not on the ground?-Floating.

1060. Could you fix the position roughly ?-Generally I have seen them between 25° west longitude, and 50° west longitude.

1061. Do you generally take the same route?-We generally take the same route. We have a regular route to go by pointed out by the Company.

1062. Is that the line generally followed by mail steamers ?-No, we do not go quite the same course. We go a little south of that if anything.

1063. Have you ever struck any of those derelicts ?-I have never struck one.

1064. Do you get information about any derelicts before you leave England?-We get monthly reports from the Board of Trade, and the greatest information from the American side.

1065. In what shape?-The wreck chart, and a bulletin, which is issued every seven days, showing any ice or wrecks, or anything floating about.

1066. Have you got that with you?-Yes; this is a sample of the bulletin (handing it in).*

1067. When you have got this, and you have got the information that this gives with regard to derelicts, what action do you take in consequence P-I try to steer clear of them, I always steer to go clear of them.

1068. Say that you hear of a derelict that was reported some days before in a certain position; would yon expect to find her there ?-No; I should keep a good lookout around that position, either north or south; I should double the lookout to prevent hitting her, if possible.

1069. Would you attempt to form an idea of how she drifted ?-I should attempt to form that idea.

1070. What would yon go by ?-By the Gulf Stream. 1071. Would that drift be affected, do you suppose, by bad weather ?-That might be affected by a strong

wind.

See Appendix H, p. 118.

1072. In addition to these derelicts, have you come across much wreckage ?-Yes.

1073. And large baulks of timber ?-At one time we used to come across a great deal, very large rafts of timber, say from Halifax to new York, when we used to go across, but there are not so many now. There were many large baulks covered with barnacles, and apparently they had been afioat a long time, and they were very heavy and low in the water.

1074. Do you think that if you struck one yon would be much damaged ?-I am of opinion that if you struck one of these baulks end on it would damage you very much.

1075. But in any other position would it damage you? If right athwart I do not think it would. It might slew alongside and catch the propeller.

1076. Do you think that the tendency would be to draw a floating object into the screw?-Yes.

1077. So much with regard to derelicts and wreckage. Have you any experience of ice?—Not much.

1078. Your course is to the southward P-Generally to the southward. We have strict orders to go well south, clear of the ice altogether.

1079. Do you know whether in the records of your Company, the Wilson line, there are any cases reported of ships that have been damaged by striking wreckage? -No, I do not know of any.

1080. (Sir Evan MacGregor.) Do you start from Hull or London ?-From Hull.

1081. Have you had any experience of the North Sea? -Yes.

1082. Before you were in command of the " Martello "? -Yes, before I was in command of the "Martello."

1083. Have you seen derelicts in the North Sea ?Yes, I have seen derelicts in the North Sea.

1084. But you have never struck one ?—I have never struck one.

1085. You said that you doubled your lookout?—Yes. 1086. What is the ordinary lookout ?-Our ordinary lookout is one man in the bows all day and night, and in foggy weather, or anywhere near a wreck, then we put another man on the fo'castle head; right forward. 1037. There are a very large number of the Wilson line running P-Yes.

1088. And, so far as you know, there has been no casualty?-No casualty with striking wrecks, that I am aware of.

1089. In all the routes?-Yes, not that I am aware of. 1090. (Sir George Nares.) What is your ordinary speed?-About 10 knots.

1091. You say you have sighted about 20 derelicts ?— Yes.

1092. Does that mean in the 12 years during which you have been captain, or have you taken in the previous time ?-1 have not taken in the previous time. 1093. If you make eight voyages a year, you have made about a hundred voyages across ?-Yes. 1094. Backwards and forwards?-Yes.

1095. And 20 derelicts are connected with all these 100 voyages ?-Yes.

1096. Can you remember whether they were bottom up or floating properly?-Some of them I have seen bottom up, and some I have seen with the deck-house just above the water.

1097. From the state of the weather in the Atlantic, what do you think would be the age of a derelict floating properly with the masts up; how long do you think she could keep afloat ?-That I could not say,

1098. Supposing she is not timber-laden, with the ordinary weather of the Atlantic, do you think she would stop up for a month ?-Oh yes, more than a month. They would be hanging about for six or seven

months.

1099. A coal-laden ship waterlogged ?--A coal-laden ship.

1100. Not a timber-laden ship ?-A coal-laden ship would go down at once.

1101. But a timber-laden ship would float a long time, you think?- It would float a long time, until she burst.

1102. May we not take it that au ordinary cargo vessel with her masts still standing could not live more than two or three weeks with the Atlantic weather?I think the timber-laden ship-

1103, Not timber-laden but an ordinary cargo vessel ? -An ordinary cargo. I do not think that she could. 1104. Would vour owners permit you to destroy a derelict? That I could not say.

1105. You never tried it ?-I have never tried it 1106. Supposing a reward were given, do you think that your owners would let you stop?-That I could not say. I could not answer for the owners.

1107. With the ordinary weather in the Atlantic, would it be ana y matter to board a derelict?-As long as she is upright, with the keel up.

1108. You think you could board her in a boat without very much delay-Some of them have boarded them and set them on fire, and tried to burn them. The Hindoo" boarded one or two wrecks, and tried to set fire to them, but they were so wet they would not burn. They were saturated with water.

1109. They tried it ?--They tried it in that way, both the "Hindoo" and the "Buffalo."

1110. You are not allowed to carry explosives ?— No.

1111. None of your vessels would be able to destroy a derelict, except by fire ?-No way except by fire.

1112. (Mr. Trevor.) And that mode of destruction by fire you have not found a very successful one ?—No; the vessel is too wet, and so soddened with water that she will not burn.

1113. You have told us that you had seen about 20 floating derelicts in your experience?—Yes.

1114. You also told us that you had seen lots of derelicts in the North Sea ?-Yes.

1115. About the 20 derelicts that you had seen, did that include the North Sea?-No; that is in the Atlantic trade.

1116. During the 100 voyages that you have been in command ?--Yes.

1117. (Captain Wharton.) Do you report a derelict when you see it ?-I always report, either on the other side if I am going out, or if coming this way I report it to our people.

1118. Have you any record of those 20 derelicts. Do not you keep a record ?-No.

1119. Then it is merely on your recollection that you say the number is 20 P-It is merely on recollection. I could not say to one or two.

1120. You have been, I think, 12 years commander? -Yes.

1121. That is nearly two a year ?-Yes.

1122. And you think you have seen them all?—I have seen those, if not more.

1123. Is it your experience that your brother captains have seen as many, or do you think that you have been particularly lucky or unlucky?-I do not think that I am in that sense lucky.

1124. Do you think that most captains who have voyaged across the Atlantic see about the same proportion ?-I suppose they see about the same, some more, by the reports of these bulletins.

1125. Are you aware that in the Cunard, which has run for many years, there have only been six or seven derelicts seen during the last 30 years, with all their captains united ?-That might be; that can be accounted for.

1126. How?-Because they go further north than we do, and most of these wrecks are about the north edge of the Gulf Stream-a little more to the northward.

1127. Do you think that the small difference in your track between England and the United States, and the track ordinarily followed by the Cunard steamers, is sufficient to account for such a large difference?-Very probably.

1128. How is it that the derelicts should be met with exactly in this particular narrow belt you speak of?— It is along the edge of the Gulf Stream.

1129. Where you go only ?-I do not know, but the Gulf Stream seems to attract them.

1130. You think on that point between 25 west and 50 west ?-Yes.

1131. 25 west is not in the Gulf Stream, it is in the open Atlantic ?—Yes.

1132. At 50 west the Gulf Stream is how wide ?-50 or 60 miles there I think.

1123. Perhaps more ?-Perhaps more.

1134. Should you think that is confined to the very narrow belt notwithstanding the width of the Gulf Stream, and that it is practically lost to the east banks of Newfoundland ?-Lost to the cast banks of Newfoundland? I found a pretty good current this time in coming home. There seems an attraction, the same as the seaweed, and you will find it to the northward. I find it an attraction in the same way.

1135. You say that you endeavour to steer clear of derelicts that you know of there ?--Yes.

1136. Will you tell us in which way ?--I take the last position that I get of it, and make an allowance of a little north-easterly drift, and keep a little to the southward.

1137. You assume always that it goes to the northeast ?-To the north-east.

1138. Do you actually alter your course for the derelicts ?-Unless I am coming within very close proximity to them and I can easy a little for it.

1139. Let us take this last bulletin published at Washington on the 11th April. Can you remember when you got that ?-I got that on the 16th.

1140. Well, there are seven derelicts and wreckage recorded here. The latest of them is April 8th, and that is close to Hatteras Shoals. It would not affect you, but the earliest is March 16th. Would you take any steps with regard to any of these vessels ?—If they were coming in my track I would.

1141. Would you actually steer out of your way and make your voyage longer?-I would make an allowance of three miles nearly easterly or east-north-east, and that is calculated upon the rate of the Gulf Stream.

1142. Have you examined the tracks occasionally marked on the pilot charts when the same vessel has been seen at different times ?—Yes.

1143. And you find that they always go at the same speed ?—They always go at the same speed.

1144. Why is three miles useful?-I take that as a medium to go by.

1145. And you place confidence in that ?—Yes, and I never seem to get near hand them.

1148. As a practical measure are you one whit safer by adopting this?-I do not think I am one whit safer for doing it. Still at the same time you are keeping out of the way, and they cannot say that you have run in the face of it.

1147. Do not you think that you may take it as absolutely possible that a derelict might remain in one spot for one day ?-It is quite impossible.

1148. Then in that case the safest way would be to go straight for her position ?-That would be a good position to get clear of her, there is no doubt of that.

1149. Do you think that the knowledge of these derelicts is any real practical advantage to you as a practical sailor ?-Not really as a practical sailor.

1150. Does not it tend to create anxiety in your mind?-It does, there is no doubt about it.

8 May 1894.

1151. We all agree as sailors that if a ship strikes a derelict of course the consequences may be disastrous, but what do you consider from your long experience of the Atlantic is the actual amount of danger from your experience of collisions that you know have occurred with derelicts?-My opinion is they are attended with very great danger.

1152. That is your opinion; but I want to know the actual number of collisions that you know of in conversation with your brother captains, or from information you may have received at the ports, of actual collisions with derelicts. What sort of proportion would you give to the danger? Would you consider it equal, for instance, to the danger from ice ?-It is every bit as bad as danger from ice.

1153. You mean that you know that collisions with derelicts are equal to collisions with ice?—Yes.

1154. You know that for a fact?--Yes.

1155. How?--I think so. One of the German Lloyd's, the "Saale," ran on to an iceberg with his bilge, and slid off again, and never did any harm.

1156. You do not think a collision with ice is not a practical danger?-It is a great practical danger; if you strike end on you are bound to come to grief, but the "Saale" steaming 18 knots, with his bilge went on to the ice and slid off again without doing any harm.

1157. Might not you do that with a derelict ?—Yes. 1158. Then they are about equally dangerous ?--Yes, equally dangerous.

1159. An iceberg or an ice-floe is very much larger than a derelict ?-Yes.

1160. You have got more chance of striking a thing that is 500 yards across, than a vessel that may be only 300 or 400 feet long?-Yes, certainly.

1161. How many cases of actual collisions have you heard of yourself or from your brother captains. I am not speaking of the accounts in the papers now; how many of them do you recollect?--I have not come across any. 1162. None at all ?-No.

1163. How many of your brother captains have run into ice?--I do not know of any of our people, but one about 10 years ago or 12 years ago.

1164. I am not speaking of the Wilson line orly?I have met several who have run into ice.

1165. More into ice than into derelicts ?-Yes, more into ice than into derelicts.

1166. Have you put down the loss of any vessels to collisions with derelicts?-No, I have not.

1167. Of course we all admit that when a vessel is missed she may have struck a derelict?—Yes, she may have struck a derelict.

1168. You do not know of any reason to assume that that has been so, except that there are a certain number of derelicts floating about, and that a vessel may have come across one?-I have no reason to suppose so, but I have an idea that it is the case.

1169. You would agree, I presume, that a larger proportion of vessels would strike derelicts, and only receive damage, more or less, than would become totally lost? -Yes.

1170. Then the proportion of vessels that you report as having collisions with derelicts would be very considerably larger than these missing vessels that have been lost by striking a derelict? Yes. There is one thing to take into account in meeting with ice, you may have an indication that you are near ice and save yourself from a collision, which you have not with a derelict.

1171. Speaking with your practical experience have you found that to be so?--Yes.

1172. Have you found indications ?-Yes, indications by taking the temperature of the water every halfhour.

1173. Have you found cases in which you have not felt the indications ?--Yes, I have.

1174. Because the mass of evidence, I think, collected now for a good many years, shows that the number of cases in which you may approach ice, and very heavy ice, without any indication, are far greater than those in which you get the indication ?--Yes.

1176. You take the precaution in case it should help you? The last time I felt touches of cold the water was 39 for just about a quarter of a mile, and round about warm water from 56 up to 60, that is at the dipping of the Arctic Stream in the Gulf Stream.

1177. (Chairman.) Is the "Lydian Monarch" one of your line ?-Yes.

1178. I am not throwing the least doubt on your statement, but this experience of derelicts is not universal amongst your captains is it?-No.

1179. Becaure Captain Morgan of the "Lydian Monarch" informs the committee that "although I "have been in the North Atlantic trade for over 30 years I have never seen one derelict " ?--Yes.

1180. Would not that show that they are partial at any rate? Yes. There is one case; when I was in the Bassano," I was very frequently meeting with derelicts. During the five years I was in command of the "Bassano" from 1885 to 1889, I was frequently meeting with them.

1181. May we assume that the derelicts you came across were more frequent during that period?—Yes.

1182. Can you suggest any reason for their being more frequent at that time than the other time ?-I cannot suggest any reason; a good many of them I suppose are dismasted and water-logged in the Gulf Stream away down south, and they drive up gradually and come up to the middle of the Atlantic.

1183. But that would not be confined to your period? -That would not be confined to my period.

1184. (Sir George Nares.) Between 1885 and 1889 in these derelict vessels do you include timber?—I mean derelict vessels only.

1185. To look for a derelict on any particular route, probably a vessel could not get to the position under a week or 10 days?-Quite so.

1186. Now, suppose that the information wa was a week or 10 days old; if you were sent to search for a particular derelict, would it be an easy matter to find her?--I cannot say that it would be.

1187. Can you give us any idea of the time or the period it would take to search for that vessel ?-No, that I cannot.

1188. Taking of course the drift of the Gulf Stream and the bad weather?--Then I could not tell you how long it would take to find her.

1189. Supposing the Government were to undertake to even keep one route open, how many vessels do you think it would take, or that there ought to be employed on these trips in the North Atlantic, and do you think it would be of practical service?—Yes, I think it would be of practical service.

1190. How many vessels would have to be employed? -Well, I should think about two from here to the Banks, and one attending about Newfoundland Banks, and occasionally coming off and taking any reports that were made.

1191. And you say that it is not at all an easy matter to find a derelict ?--I cannot say that it would be an easy matter to find her.

1192. (Mr. Trevor.) Have you noticed in this weekly number of the "Weekly Bulletin" which you have put in, published on April 11th, that in the three weeks between the 14th of March and the 8th of April seven reports of derelicts and wreckage have been received from vessels, and 33 reports of vessels passing and touching ice ?--No.

1193. You have not noticed that ?--I have not noticed that. I did not count them up. I have not gone through that.

1194. Will you take it from me that the numbers are seven in one case and 33 in the other ?-Yes.

1195. Does that go to show that vessels fall in with ice more than they fall in with derelicts ?-Yes, if they go that route they are bound to fall in with it.

1196. Is that bulletin confined to a particular route? -No, it is not confined to a particular route, but the more north you go on leaving New York the more ice you will get. If you go south you will not fall in with any ice, but derelicts.

1197. You do not think that ice is a more common danger?-It is not a more common danger.

1198. Notwithstanding 33 reports of ice as against seven of derelicts ?-You see, we know where the ice is more than we do where the derelicts are; we have an idea that ice is so far in such a latitude, and we go down south to get clear of it.

1199. (Chairman.) You are referring now to your steamers particularly ?-During the ice we are supposed to go south,

1200. Therefore you do not regard ice as a danger? -We keep clear of it.

1201. (Mr. Trevor.) The report of ice is of less value to you than to other people ?-It is of less value to us than to other people.

1202. (Sir George Nares.) You steer clear of the ice because you dread it ?-Yes. Our ships are uninsured. and we have particular instructions not to run any danger or any risk, and therefore we go well south to keep clear of the ice,

1203. (Chairman.) Are you secretary of the Shipmaster's Society?—I am.

1204. Is the evidence you are now going to give us from what you have known youself or is it collected evidence? It is what I have collected since special interest has been shown in this particular question.

1205. And that you have collected from various shipmasters?-From various sources.

1206. For the advantage of those attached to your society ?-Yes, to our society, and other navigators.

1207. You no doubt see a great number of captains of ships that come into the Thames ?-Not a very great number. Shipmasters when actively employed have really very little time to go to a society like ours.

1208. Would you tell us a little more precisely how you get your information ?—I can show the information, perhaps that will do, from newspapers and reports.

1209. (Mr. Trevor.) Do you get it from the newspapers ?-Yes; some from newspaper reports and some from the masters. For instance, from the memorials I have handed in; a number of men in the Shipmasters' Society whom I questioned, and from whom I got information, have marked the information upon the memorials, and some have spoken of their experiences.

1210. You have stated that much of your information is from newspaper reports. I would ask you to say whether you have verified the accuracy of those newspaper reports ?--It is quite impossible for me to verify them. I have lists of reports verified as those reports in the bulletin usually are.

1211. (Chairman.) You said in your letter that you would place before the committee monthly lists of derelicts seen and reported since about the 1st November 1893, what report is that?-Here they are, monthly reports.

1212. (Sir Courtenay Boyle.) Where are they taken from?--From the "Liverpool Journal of Commerce," a shipping paper.

1213. (Chairman.) These are extracts from newspapers?-Those are published monthly lists, taken from the reports of captains on their arrival.

1214. Would you let me see some of those?—Yes. 1215. I presume that this list of derelicts is equally known to the Board of Trade?-Presumably. I have heard of the Board of Trade monthly Notices to Mariners. I intended to look for the list of derelicts in them this morning, but had not time. As far as I can see it is not in the Atlantic portion of the Notices.

1216. (Mr. Trevor.) But being an officer of a shipmasters' society, do you not provide yourself with that summary, or monthly list P-I get the Admiralty report sent regularly; it gives the information, and I have no occasion to use the other.

1217, You are aware that it is supplied gratuitously? -I am aware that it is supplied gratuitously, but I have the information direct from the Admiralty as it is issued, and that is enough for our members.

1218. (Chairman.) Perhaps it would help us if you said what is the meaning and purpose of your society? -The meaning of the society is that officers have associated themselvcs together with the object of meet. ing the case of Courts of Inquiry, which may imperil their certificates. If the master of a ship, or an officer, is called upon to answer for his conduct by the Board of Trade, in the case of a casualty, if he is a member of the London Society, or either of these kindred societies, the society to which he belongs provides legal defence for him; and I may say, as you ask me, that this

London Society, in addition to that, collects information which may be of value to its members.

1219. Well then, if that is so, can you give us some practical information of damages that have occurred to life or property ?-I should say that I have not attempted to collect cases or do anything of the sort until quite recently. I happen to have here an extendes protest made in the case of an actual collision with a derelict. I believe that the captain of the ship gave vidence here the other day; he was to do so, at least; e was the captain of the "Wooloomooloo." This proest was drawn from the legbook, and put before the underwriters, and the claim was founded upon it. The owners of the ship have informed me that the cost of this collision to the underwriters, in this particular case, was between 1,7007. and 1,8007. Here is a report of the survey on the damaged hull.

1220. What we are anxious to get here is authenticated cases of damage to shipping from collision with floating derelicts P-I cannot give a better instance than that one.

1221. We have that in evidence already?-But this is a legal document; two, in fact.

1222. (Mr. Trevor.) But the witness on the last occasion stated the circumstances of the collision, and said that he was chief officer of such and such a vessel in October 1888, and so on, and he gave us his description of the effect upon the ship. I do not see how that could be necessary to be put in now ?I sec.

1223. (Chairman.) I do not think that we want to question the case; we accept the captain's statement ? -I thought it might be of interest to the Committee. Here is a list of ten actual collisions resulting in damage and reported since the 1st January.

1230. (Chairman.) But our object is to get properly authenticated cases inquired into, and by competent judges, and where they have pronounced that the damage arose from a floating derelict?--It is practically impossible to bring men here for that purpose, as you will see by the letter handed in this morning.

1231. Well, then, I think I may assume that as far as information you can give us is concerned, it is principally from newspapers, and that your society cannot produce any anthentic cases, or inquire into cases over and above what have been published in other ways?-I am not aware that that has been published. This is a letter from the captain of the " Europe," where he saved a crew from a ship which was a derelict afterwards rntil she went down. I am not quite sure how long she was afloat; it is reported in the newspapers that she was seen to sink by another ship. It is from the captain of the " Europe," and sent to

me by his employer, the manager of the National Steamship Company, without reference to this Committee; simply as information.

1232. The letter reporting the captain of the Europe" having saved a crew ?-Yes, and the danger incurred in doing it.

1233. (Mr. Trevor.) What is the date ?-On the morning of the 25th instant (April 1894), in latitude 49° 19' N. and longitude 9° 49′ W.

1234. (Chairman.) We do not at all deny the existence of derelicts, but what we are anxious about is to fix with some certainty where they have been seen, and what damage has arisen from them; and if you cannot give us really well-worked out cases, then you do not assist us much, because we already have all the statistics published in the newspapers, as well as those that come to the Board of Trade officially ?-These do not all reach the Board of Trade.

1235. Not through you? - Not at all; they are not invariably reported.

1236. (Sir Courtenay Boyle.) How do you know that ?I think I may safely say so. For instance, the captain of one of the Gulf steamers (Captain Hudson), very nearly ran foul of a derelict on his route from New York to the cast. I think about 200 miles off Cape St. Vincent that would be, and that might not be reported officially or otherwise.

66

66

66

66

66

1240. (Mr. Trevor.) But the Act says, That the master of every ship arriving from parts beyond the seas, shall at the time of making report answer all such questions relating to the ship, cargo, crew, and voyage, as shall be put to him by the collector, or other proper officer "under a penalty of 1007. Every master has to make a report on arriving in a port, and in his ordinary deposition he has to answer any ques tion put to him?-In the ordinary way on going into port he is not asked questions, except if he has picked up anything, or in the case of a collision, or damage to a ship; but in the ordinary way he is not asked what he has seen; he may pass derelicts and information remains shut up in his log book.

1241. (Chairman.) I do not think that you have got correct information upon that subject, because the captains that we have seen and asked, say that it is a matter of course to report everything that they have seen, and not only that, but a form is supplied to them from Lloyd's which they are asked to fill up?-That I am quite aware of. I have been actively interested of late in inducing masters of ships to fill up these reports, and on application to Colonel Hozier you will find that such reports have, until quite lately, been very much neglected.

1242. You wish to imply that the captains of a great number of ships arriving in England neglect to report under the 53rd section of the Customs Consolidation Act of 1876 P--There is no doubt of the willingness of the masters to give information if they are asked; the question is not generally raised except in the case of a casualty or something of that kind; a man may see 20 derelicts and enter the circumstance in the log, but it may not go outside the log, no one asking him for it.

1243 Yet seeing that the information is published every week by the Board of Trade and by these American bulletins and charts, I ask you how that information is got at if it is not reported by captains?-How, is stated in the Hydrographer's notice. For instance, the "Shipping Gazette" of a certain date makes this or that report.

1244. Yes, but that information could only have been given on the captain's arrival?-Those who choose to do so send their reports to Lloyd's, or the "Shipping Gazette," or the "Liverpool Journal of Commerce. In America captains are invited to report. They are visited by representatives of the Hydrographic burean, and then somehow the inclination to give information bas grown very much and is used very much in America; here it is not. If you address

yourself to Colonel Hozier he will bear me out in that respect. Quite lately Lloyd's, with whom I have some business from time to time, asked if I could help them to get more reports here.

1245. We understand that you think the information is not now sufficiently circulated ?--It is not sufficiently circulated.

1246. Nor sufficiently reported by the captains of ships ?-I think it might be reported much more than it is. If you will permit me I will read this. This copy of Notices to Mariners, for instance, is dated the 1st May. I visited the Mercantile Marine Office in Well Street this morning to get it, and was informed there that it arrived this morning, and that Notices to Mariners are published monthly.

1247. That is the Board of Trade notice P-That is the Board of Trade notice. The Hydrographic notices do not reach captains often except through such societies as ours. That is the position with reference to these last-mentioned Notices.

1248. (Mr. Trevor.) Of course you are aware that some of the notices in that May summary had appeared in the previous April and March one?-Oh, yes; but much of the information is of necessity old.

1249. (Chairman.) I believe that it is imperative for all captains of vessels arriving inwards to report themselves to the Custom house?-Certainly.

1250. Do you know that the Customs have ordered their officers to call upon masters to state whether they have fallen in with or picked up a wreck of any kind on their voyage?-By law they are to report anything picked up, certainly.

1251. But this is an order from the Customs; it directs that the controllers or collectors are to make that inquiry?—I cannot say as to the practice now; it is many years since I was before a collector of Customs.

1252. And it goes on to say that if they have picked up or seen any wreck they are to specify the particulars to the proper officer. That order exists ?-Yes.

1253 So the machinery exists, but whether it is actually carried out is another matter ?-But that is for what is picked up, you see.

1254. "Fall in with or pick up." As a seaman I would understand by that anything seen ?-That is not the business of the Custom house. I have not had recent experience. No Custom house official would think of asking a shipmaster if he had passed a derelict, nor would the master think of telling him.

1255. That surprises me greatly, because it is so very much in the interest of masters to give notice of dangers they have seen?-The state of things is as I have said; such information is sought in the United States, here it is not sought, so that reporting has dropped very much out of practice.

1256. How far does your experience carry you; are you speaking of the port of London alone ?--I am speaking of the whole of the United Kingdom.

1257. I think you know that this statement is open to question; it is not our business to question you at this moment, but I understand that is your opinion, that the reports are not sufficiently made, or not universally made ?--Reports of derelicts are not always made.

1258. (Mr. Trevor.) Notwithstanding the directions of the Commissioners of Customs ?-Notwithstanding such laws as exist.

1259. (Chairman.) And notwithstanding the very large amount of information that is actually published every month ?--Yes.

1260. Do you suppose that if any captain omits to report on arrival any derelicts that he has seen, it rather points to the fact that he does not attach any importance to it ?-I should think it would point to the fact that he does not attach much importance to it. I have found in London quite recently that some managers of large lines do not attach any great inportance to the matter, not sufficient to ask for the removal of derelicts, though, as may be seen by the United States charts, right in the track of their ships.