established in the Navy, the sailor might | understand that their condition would be be made, to a great extent, a provident improved. With regard to punishment in person. the Navy, to which his hon. Friend (Mr. W. Williams) had alluded, he would just observe, that no captain in the Navy could order any punishment to be inflicted within twenty-four hours after the commission of the offence; there was, therefore, ample time afforded for due consideration as to the degree of punishment to be inflicted. Monthly or quarterly returns were also required to be made from all ships as to the number of punishments which had taken place. It was, therefore, not very safe for any captain to return home and demand his promotion unless his list of punishments was such as the Admiralty might not consider either intolerable or harsh. For his part, he had always voted against corporal punishment, and in favour of substituting imprisonment or some other kind of correction. But he believed that every caution was now taken that nothing of a cruel or tyrannical character should take place on board Her Majesty's ships. He believed no officer or commander of a ship would stand well at the Admiralty if it were found that he had unduly punished his men.

SIR GEORGE PECHELL said, he believed there were very few persons, either in or out of the House, who were not disposed to concur with the hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Admiralty as to the necessity of increasing the efficiency of the Navy; but the hon. Gentleman had not stated that the money voted for that purpose last Session was not sufficient. He had not told the House what had become of the 30,000l. which had been voted as a reserve fund. The hon. Gentleman stated that the intention of the Government was simply to raise 5,000 additional seamen, half of whom were to be brought into service within the next two months, and that they would not be liable to be moved from ship to ship, according to the present practice. But there were other points on which he had not given any explanation. The sailors were at present very much dissatisfied with the late regulations with regard to their provisions, especially in having the quantity of their grog limited, which was a very delicate question as far as regarded seamen. Until that grievance was re- MR. STAFFORD said, that 30,000l. dressed, they would find great dissatisfac- had certainly been voted on a late occation prevail. Men who had lately been sion; but at the same time an understandpaid off were found not to return to their ing was given that it should be maintained ships. They also felt exceedingly annoyed for the purposes of a Naval Reserve. It at the system of being sent about from had not, therefore, been used at all, nor ship to ship. It greatly interfered with was it the intention of the present Board the comfort of their families, and caused of Admiralty to avail themselves of it. If them much expense in wear and tear. he had understood the hon. and gallant Again, with regard to promotion, now that Gentleman (Sir G. Pechell) rightly, he they were raising these additional men, it thought that sailors ought to be tempted would, in his opinion, be well to make into the service by promises of pensions them understand that when they became when they became petty officers; but petty officers they would be considered surely the hon. and gallant Gentleman deserving of pensions. These petty offi- would not make any difference between cers were the men on whom they could these and the other men in the service. always rely, and he thought their case His right hon. Friend the Chancellor of had not been sufficiently considered. Much the Exchequer had said that certain alterdissatisfaction had also been created by ations might with effect be made in manthe order of the Admiralty in respect to ning the Navy; but it would be a misconthe prices which were charged to the sea- ception to conclude from the words of the men for their provisions, especially their right hon. Gentleman that the men heresugar and tea. He hoped, now that the after would be liable to more restrictions right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer than they had been liable to before. The was about to reduce the duty on the latter same system which had hitherto existed, article, and as the duty on sugar had would, so far as their liberties were conalready been reduced, a proportionate re-cerned, still remain. The hon. and galduction would be made in the charge for those articles to the sailors. This was a peculiar time, at which it was very important that our sailors should be made to

lant Gentleman had not exaggerated in his statement as regarded corporal punishment. The present Board thought that officer the most meritorious who could

At

manage his crew with the least recourse ocean, and increase our Navy as might be to such extremities, and by recognising required. The great mistake hitherto had them as fellow men. Still, as to corporal been-he was glad the present Admiralty punishments, he believed that if you put had avoided it, and gave them every credit it to the Navy, they would themselves say for so doing-that they had sent nearly all it could not be altogether avoided. The our vessels abroad, and that those even al5,000 men now asked for were to have lowed to stay at home were refitting or not their choice of their ship, and when they half manned, so that at home there was had chosen it were not to be removed scarcely a vessel fit to go out and meet an from it. enemy. He found now that they were not only going to have 5,000 additional men for the Channel fleet, but, as he understood, 10,000 altogether. The hon. Secretary to the Admiralty had said that it was intended to retain the 5,000 there already, and that 5,000 extra were henceforth to be employed, not as a demonstration of war, but as an acting security. present he would make no observations on the mode of manning the Navy-he had given a notice on that question; but he might say that he hoped those officers who were examining into the subject of the naval improvement in respect to manning the fleet would do so in a generous spirit, and would recollect that England must depend at all times, and under all circumstances, on having the command of the sea. must recollect that unless they made the service popular, it would be utterly impossible to get a sufficient number of good and efficient seamen, and that, if a war suddenly broke out, they would act at a disadvantage, or be obliged immediately to apply to improvement. He was glad the Motion before the Committee seemed to be cordially accepted on all sides, for the Navy was our true legitimate and certain defence, and no other could be equal to it.

They

CAPTAIN SCOBELL begged to congratulate the Committee and the country that at last they were about to take the right means for our national defence. He had always held that they had reason to complain, when they were discussing the question of defences last year, that the militia force was put in advance of recruiting the Navy, and using those natural means for the safety of the country which Providence had given us. What the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton (Viscount Palmerston) then said about nothing being able to resist the enemy approaching our coast and landing on our shores, had fallen to the ground, since it was proposed to have a full command of the Channel by the formation of a fleet ready at any moment to encounter the enemy. He thought, also, that there would be plenty of means of saving the money expended on this extra force, if they only instituted a rigid examination into the way in which naval money was now spent, for at present, in almost every item, the expenditure was susceptible of very great improvement. To those who knew the way in which the public money was spent in the dockyards, there was a fruitful source of economy to be found in that. The Admiralty began MR. CORRY said, he should not have some time back by having a paddle fleet; addressed the Committee upon the present now he was glad to find they had become occasion had it not been for an observation converts to a screw fleet. He certainly which had fallen from the hon. and gallant thought they were right, but warned them Member who had just addressed the Comnot to run on before the science of the day. mittee. The hon. and gallant Member They would not live two years before they had expressed a hope that the Admiralty saw further improvements, and therefore would not go too fast in constructing when they talked of assembling fleets at screw vessels, but would wait and see what Portsmouth, Plymouth, and the Nore, improvements might be introduced in that they should not run into hasty expense. motive power. Now, it would no doubt be The great point was this-to take care desirable that experiments should be carethat England had the command of those fully made before any considerable expense waters which made her invulnerable. No was incurred in the construction of our nation had the right to say to England, ships, if time were afforded for such expe"Why do you increase your Navy?" It riments; but it should be remembered that was our natural defence. They had their the most important point of all was that armies as theirs. We had the ocean as provision should be made for the safety of our field of defence, and not from any the country. The Board of Admiralty felt jealousy, but simply for the purposes of that they could not postpone the construcdefence. We must avail ourselves of the tion of screw steamers while other nations

were building vessels of that class. He might be said upon the subject; but he would read an extract from a preliminary hoped the Committee would not always note to the French Navy Estimates for the believe the statements that were made by present year, which would show the im- hon. and gallant Officers. It was astonportance attached in France to that point. ishing what inaccurate statements and It was there stated thatcharges were made, and he really thought hon. and gallant Officers ought to inquire a little before they made them.

"The alteration of ships of the line into steam vessels had become a political and naval necessity of the first order. It was impossible to postpone those changes any longer without reducing France from the rank she ought to hold among the nations of the world. The greater portion of the

naval estimates for the year 1858 was to be ap

plied to that useful work."

If this country were to suspend her works in that direction, France would in the course of a year have fifteen or sixteen screw steam ships, while we should have but three or four. With regard to the supplemental vote of 5,000 men, then under the consideration of the Committee, he could not help expressing his gratification at finding the Government come forward with such a proposal. He had shown last year that France, with an enormous military force, had more vessels on her home station than England had on her home station. He trusted that the proposed 5,000 men would be kept in the Channel, and would be added to the force hitherto stationed there, and not frittered away on foreign stations.

MR. HUME said, the Committee had just seen a specimen of the manner in which Gentlemen who had been in office to complain of the acts of any branch of attempted to put down any one who dared the Executive Government. It was idle to talk of the responsibility of a Minister in matters of Naval or Military expenditure, for everybody knew that such responsibility was only theoretic and imaginary. Responsibility no doubt did attach morally to a Minister in such matters; but where was the Minister who was ready to answer for that responsibility? There were, at the present moment, no fewer than 39,000 seamen and marines in the service of Great Britain, and now it was sought to augment that prodigious number by the addition of 6,500 more; but before any such augmentation was agreed to, the Committee ought to be informed of the present position and actual employment of this enormous force at present in pay. Where were they, and what were they doing? For his own part, MR. HUME said, he wished to know he was disposed to regard with disfavour how it happened that of 160 sail of the and suspicion this proposition for an inline which we possessed, only twelve or crease of our naval force, for he could not thirteen were kept at home for the defence forget that Mr. Pitt, whose authority was of our shores. He was desirous as any considered paramount on the Ministerial man could be that we should have a pow-side of the House (as long as it coincided erful fleet, but he protested against its being broken up into fragments, and scattered throughout every sea, instead of being maintained in great measure for the defence of our own shores.

SIR FRANCIS BARING begged to express his approval of the proposed increase. No one knew more than himself how difficult it was to state the grounds for any increase. It was for the Government to state, on their responsibility, what they thought necessary for the service of the country, and he was not one of those who would oppose what they so thought necessary. It was the habit of many hon. Gentlemen in that House to keep up a sort of rattling fire upon every Board of Admiralty; but when the proper time arrived, if hon. Gentlemen pleased to attack the course he and his Colleagues had pursued when in office upon the Naval Estimates, he should be ready to say what he thought

with their own policy) had always maintained that 16,000 marines and seamen were all that were required for the maritime defence of the country. No doubt the times were changed, for Ministers had been going on from one act of extavagance to another of late years; but still there was reason in all things, or there ought to be, and he was sure the present naval force was quite sufficient for all purposes of national defence.

SIR GEORGE PECHELL was sorry for the dispute between the two Boards of Admiralty, but thought for his own part that for the last seventeen years there had been a good deal to complain of.

CAPTAIN SCOBELL said, it would be very difficult to speak in that House on naval subjects, if each representative of the different Boards of Admiralty were always to get up and make an attack on the speakers. The very measure before the

Committee was a reflection on former ones,
because it proposed to do what they had
neglected doing.
Vote agreed to.

(2.) 100,000l., Steam Machinery.

ters caused a wasteful expenditure, of which the people justly complained, and he must he was most reluctant to agree to this vote, being of opinion that they had both ships and men enough.

say

MR. STAFFORD begged to explain, that the number of men at present employed, with the additional 5,000 demanded, would man the fleet and leave a reserve.

MR. JOHN MACGREGOR said, he must complain that a large unnecessary expenditure had been annually incurred for want of due attention and economy in the naval yards. It mattered not who was at the head of Admiralty affairs, no efficient reform could be introduced without a complete reconstruction of the system. He thought an account should be laid before Parliament showing the cost of every ship in the Navy, not only for her first construction, but for all repairs and alterations she might undergo. He believed the Windsor Castle and others which were being adapted for the screw, would be found totally inefficient as ships of war. They would not be able to carry their complement of men, or a sufficient supply of coals and ammunition. In the dockyards the men did not perform more than a third of a day's labour for a day's pay, and until that system was reformed, we could not expect either economy or efficiency. In consenting to the Vote, he reserved to himself the right to call attention to any vessel now being altered from a sailing to a steam ship, should the failures he anticipated occur.

SIR GEORGE PECHELL said, there was certainly a very prevailing opinion that the amount already voted for steam ships would be perfectly sufficient if the Admiralty knew their own mind. Unfortunately they did not. A ship just ready for launching was pulled about in the most extraordinary manner. There was the St. Vincent, which had lately been docked at Portsmouth, all dismantled, and the whole expense upon her thrown away. There was also the case of the Windsor Castle, and it was beyond calculation what the cost of all these alterations would come to. He had asked the hon. Gentleman on a previous occasion for the number of vessels which had had, or were going to have, the operation for the screw performed upon them; but the hon. Gentleman had replied that that was information which it was very impolitic to give. But he said still that there was nothing in it in any way to prejudice the interests of the community, that it was impossible to maintain any secrecy of that kind, and that, after all, the hon. Gentleman must give him the information he required. In the same way, when he wished to know the expense of converting the Ajax and the Blenheim into screw steamers, the hon. Gentleman refused that information; but that also he would be obliged shortly to give. He thought, moreover, that the system of saluting admirals who changed CAPTAIN DUNCOMBE said, that twotheir flags was carried on to a truly ridi-thirds of the sum sought for under the culous extent. There was nothing but present Vote would doubtless pass into firing along the entire coast, to the great the pockets of the hon. Member's (Mr. astonishment of the people, who naturally M'Gregor's) constituents, from whom the enough thought that the militia were on requisite steam machinery would be ob the point of being called out, and that the tained. French were coming. Then if a picnic took place at the Isle of Wight, off went a steamer with an evident sacrifice of useful fuel. He thought if the House of Commons would order returns of the number of times steamers were ordered to light up their fires on such occasions, it would check the wasteful expenditure to which he had alluded. Then there was the practice of pulling ships to pieces. When a ship put into port, she was paid off just as her men had become instructed in the art of gunnery, and the ship was pulled to pieces whether she wanted repairs or not. He thought all these mat

MR. SIDNEY HERBERT hoped there would be no division on the Vote. The unanimous acquiescence of the Committee in it, taken in conjunction with the establishment of the militia, would prove to the world that the people of England, however anxious for economy, were willing to make any sacrifice that the Government might think necessary for perfeetly securing the state of our national defences. Vote agreed to.

(3.) 73,9717. Charge of Wages.

CAPTAIN SCOBELL said, that he would take occasion to observe, that much good would probably result to the service if the

Admiralty, instead of building all their | still for an hour or two together, in order own vessels, were occasionally to employ to allow the vessels in the river to pass up private builders. Some of the Admiralty and down without being fired into. built ships were undoubtedly splendid ves- understood that to purchase a practicesels, but they had not yet reached perfec- ground of sufficient extent, running parallel tion. It was a remarkable circumstance to the river, and which might be used at that this country had no vessels during the times, would cost only 60,000l. war at all so good as those which were taken from the French.