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as to the great variety of objects which it, and it had been stated, on behalf of some was endeavoured to attain in that institu- of them, that they found house-rents so tion. They ought certainly to have a very expensive that they would be obliged great national library in this country, and to dissolve the societies if their applications a great number of books were collected at were refused. It must be evident that, the Museum; but he could not think that in such cases, the societies would be very the space now allotted in that building to glad to bave rooms allotted to them in the the numerous articles of science and natu- proposed buildings, where their meetings ral history was likely long to suffice. Now, might take place. He could not but beif they had other buildings upon a sufficient lieve that this was the commencement of a space of ground, room might be found in great improvement. He was very glad to them for some of those objects to which he find that the Government had taken up

the referred, and the Museum might be left question, and he believed that, under the more entirely for the purpose of a library. guidance of the illustrious Prince who was These were the general objects which the at the head of the Commission, they would Commissioners had in view. He believed be able to render very great services to the that if this ground were now to be pur- country, and materially to promote the chased, and the House should afterwards progress of science and art. decide that they would not sanction any MR. HUME said, he had heard the further outlay, the same spirit which led to statement of the right hon. Chancellor of the subscription of such very large sums the Exchequer with great satisfaction, and for promoting the Great Exhibition, would, he agreed that it was most desirable that he had little reason to doubt, prompt the the Government should come forward to public to find means which would provide aid the energy and public spirit of the peofor the erection of the requisite buildings. ple. The House must, however, consider He thought the mechanical inventions and what were to be the results of what they the specimens of manufactures that would were now asked to do. The noble Lord be collected, and the chymical lectures that (Lord Seymour) had inquired who were to would be given, would be matters of so have the management of the scheme, and much interest to those connected with ma- on whom the responsibility would rest ? nufactures in all parts of the Kingdom, He (Mr, Hume was perfectly satisfied, that that they would think it of the greatest under the superintendence of the illustrious importance, that in the metropolis an es- Prince who had been alluded to as presidtablishment should be maintained where so ing over the Commission, matters would go much valuable information might be ob- on well enough; but the House must look tained. He knew that the Museum of at the future, and he asked them to conPractical Geology, which was erected a few sider what was the constitution of the Comyears ago, had been the means of affording mission. The Crown alone possessed any most valuable information to many persons. power over it—that House had nothing He thought it was to be lamented, that to do with it and before they invested hitherto they had not had some great cen- public property in the hands of such a tre of the kind suggested by the Commis- Commission they ought to look, not only sioners, and he could not doubt that, though to the management of the property, but the plan was at present imperfect, the also to the use which might eventually spirit of the nation and the disposition of be made of it. He thought they ought that House-if the sum now asked for was also to consider whether, on the site which voted—would lead to the establishment of was recommended such an institution would such an institution. His noble Friend afford all the advantages which it ought (Lord Seymour) had said he understood to afford. He had heard that it was inthat some of the scientific societies would tended to remove the National Gallery to not be willing to go as far as Kensington Kensington, where, in his opinion, it would to their evening meetings. That was very not be visited by one out of the ten persons possible with regard to many of these asso- who now went there. He doubted whether ciations, but the Commissioners left the the pictures would not suffer more injury matter quite optional with the societies from the removal than they possibly could themselves. Any one who was acquainted receive from the impurity of the atmowith the Treasury knew that frequent ap- sphere to which they were now subjected, plications were made by many of these Mr. H. DRUMMOND: Sir, I entirely scientific societies for the use of public agree in what has been said relative to buildings in which to hold their meetings; the public advantage to be derived from

giving every person in this country an op- / line drawing of a great painting; yet you portunity of advancing himself in litera- are now going to try to force a taste on ture and science. I have no doubt but our people. If you want to learn the sucthat the British Museum is an immense cess of our artists, you have only to walk advantage to our people, but I have great into our lobbies and look at our frescoes~ doubts whether we are not now about to you can there regale yourselves with spe. embark in a very crude speculation—a cimens of English art. You are going to foolish attempt to force the population into pay a very large sum of money for land; a taste for the fine arts which nature has has the right hon. Gentleman the Chancelnot given them. It sounds very liberal lor of the Exchequer stated what he is going and noble to desire the education and pro- to do with the land when he gets it? If gress of the national mind in those pur- you are going to build upon it, let me ask suits in which other nations excel; but I where you will be able to find an architect ? believe that, to endeavour to force this The new Houses of Parliament were to taste upon them, is just as absurd nation- have been built for 700,0001.; we have ally as it would be individually, to at- expended 2,500,0001. upon them, and this tempt to make the same man a sculptor, room, which is, or ought to be, the room a painter, a musician, a poet, an orator, a par excellence—that room where the busistatesman, and a warrior. They all knew ness of the nation is transacted—is not that was impossible, for there should be a sufficient to hold us. First, it was imposdivision of labour in everything. It would sible for us to hear one another; then we be as difficult to make our people like the were alternately baked by heat and frozen highest order of painting as to make the by cold; we had either too much light or Italians like beef-steaks and porter. The too little, and yet with all this experience late Exhibition has given us a very useful of our architectural skill, we are about to lesson. You never did exceed in the high- embark in a wild scheme. I admit that est department even of manufactures. At in painting landscape scenery we excel all no time have we done so. The other day Europe, but in the fine arts generally we I saw some specimens of working in iron, realise the old linesbut even in this at no period were there in “ That which with them is always goût, England such eminent workers in iron as With us is only gout." abroad. I could give instances of the truth MR. EWART said, he should support of what I am saying from the productions the proposal, which was the purchase of a of many countries in Europe. Gentle piece of land, and if the Committee did men who have travelled abroad know the not afterwards wish to use it, he had no beautiful ornaments of cathedrals called doubt the land would fetch the price which altar screens. In the northern countries they were now about to give for it.

He these are made of stone, whilst in Spain, was, however, at issue with the hon. Memand in the Low Countries, they are always ber for West Surrey (Mr. Drummond) upon made of iron, and the makers of them are the question as to the taste of the English as well known as the eminent painters. In people for the fine arts. He contended Spain the people will tell you who was the that it was almost disgraceful to humanity maker of such and such altar screens, just that any nation, even blacks, should be as in Venice they will tell you who was the devoid of taste for those great works, or painter of such and such a picture. They with proper education unable to arrive at had never attained such a pitch of work- some degree of perfection in them. The manship in iron in this country. Our cloth plan of the Royal Commissioners was unmanufacture is at this moment inferior to doubtedly creditable in its conception, and that of other countries, and we are not would be energetically and successfully able to keep up a supply even of patterns carried out. of ordinary articles of dress, but are ob- MR. CRAVEN BERKELEY expressed liged to go to France for them. Are you a hope that the right hon. Chancellor of aware that not one of our great painters the Exchequer would use his powerful inever knew how to draw ? Sir Joshua Rey- fluence to prevent the spoliation of the nolds never did. Sir Thomas Lawrence, splendid works of art now going on in the it is notorious, did not know how to draw. National Gallery. I believe it would be exceedingly dificultMr. SPOONER said, he could not eonto find any man in this country who could sent to give his vote until he knew to execute what is a common every-day work whom the land would be conveyed, who with French and Italians--namely, an out- would have the control of the land, and for what purposes the land would be employed rivals throughout the world. It was imwhen they had purchased it. They were possible to conceive a plan more practical, told the new National Gallery was to be more important, or more urgent as regarderected on it, but he submitted there would ed the interests of the country. This land be some question of the expediency of re- was, in fact, virtually purchased, because moving the National Gallery so far from the Commissioners had entered upon a conthe metropolis.

tract for its purchase with the confident exThe CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE- pectation that Parliament and the country QUER said, the proposition before the would assist them. When the purchase was Committee was not to build any new Na- fully completed, all further plans must retional Gallery, or to raise any other edifice ceive the consideration of that House, and whatever. The proposition before the Com- he was sure that House would not consent mittee was whether they should contribute to raising any buildings, or any expenditure, an equal sum with that already voted by without a very rigid scrutiny into all the the Royal Commissioners for the purchase arrangements, and taking care that the of some land, which was the only plot of whole talent of the country should be land which, he believed, ever could be pur- brought into public competition. He hoped chased in the immediate vicinity of this the Committee would agree to this Vote. metropolis. Hereafter, if it should be sub. By doing so they would not agree to any. mitted to that House that it was a con- expenditure beyond the purchase of valuvenient site, among other things, for the able property, which hereafter might be dealt National Gallery, which must be removed with with as Parliament should think fit. somewhere or other, for at present there MR.VERNON SMITH said, he thought was not a single place where works of art that the right hon. Chancellor of the Excould be deposited in safety, it would be chequer had not replied to the objection of for the House fairly to consider that ques- his (Mr. V. Smith's) noble Friend (Lord tion, and it would be entirely under their Seymour. He thought the right hon. Gencontrol. All he wished the Committee now tleman should give an answer to the questo do was to agree to vote this sum of tion that had been put by the noble Lord 150,0001., which he desired to see under the Member for Totnes (Lord Seymour), the control of a Minister of the Crown, whether it was proposed to raise buildings according to the language used in the Com- at the public expense upon the ground missioners' Report. He had never pro- that had been purchased, and whether the posed that the Committee should vote a ground was to be under the control of the sum of money to be applied out of the con- Commissioners or of a Minister of the trol of a Minister of the Crown responsi- Crown. ble to that House. They had heard some MR. EWART said, he thought the exobservations of hon. Members on the lo- act state of the case did not seem to be cality. It was the locality to which not quite understood by some hon. Members. only the population of this metropolis but From the results of the Great Exhibition the whole population of the United King- there remained 175,0001. ; with the fund dom resorted not two years ago, and he the Commissioners bought seventy acres of could not but believe that if the inducement land, and they offered it to the nation on were equal, the locality would be found condition that seventy acres more were convenient. The hon. Member for West added to it. Surrey (Mr. Drummond) seemed to ima- LORD SEYMOUR said, they had not gine this was an attempt to force a feeling yet heard what was the quantity of ground for fine pictures among the general com- to be purchased, or what portion was to be munity; when the fact was, the reference made over to the public. to the National pictures was a very subordi- Mr. CLAY said, he wished to know if a nate portion of the Commissioners' Report. conditional contract had been entered into The scheme they recommended was neither for all the land, because it was reported more nor less than to give an industrial that the owner of a small portion of the education to the people, and to bring the land, four acres only, asked 70,0001. for influence of science, especially, and of art, it, and said nothing should induce him to upon their manufacturing production. No take a farthing less. attempt would be made to infuse

di- The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHElettante spirit into the working classes, QUER said, that offer had been treated but an opportunity would be given them of with the contempt it deserved. There was fitting themselves for competing with their no conditional agreement whatever. Se1035 Supply-Funeral of the {COMMONS} Duke of Wellington. 1036 venty acres had been purchased by the in the individual energy of the country, and surplus of the Exhibition, and the Com- if they established central schools, they missioners offered to give the whole of their would lessen the individual exertion which purchase to the public, provided the nation had been the mainstay of the mechanical would assist them in the object they had in industry of the country. He had no objecview. There could be no difficulty in tion to grants of money for buildings for making arrangements satisfactory to the the exhibition of our excellent works of art; House for its control and mangement, but but if it were intended to introduce central he wished it to be distinctly understood schools by which degrees were to be estathat the whole of the land purchased would Llished, so that individuals out of the pale of be given to the public.

these schools might be marked (he alluded MR. HUME said, he was satisfied with to the centralising system in France, where the assurance that the land should be under the Ecole Polytechnique had been estathe control of a Minister of the Crown, but blished, out of which there was no opporhoped the Vote would be postponed until tunity for any individual, however great the plan of the property was before the his merit), he felt bound to raise his voice Committee.

the moment the question was introduced. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE- It might be said, that this was only the QUER said, it would be very convenient if first Vote; but this first Vote might introthe Committee would now dispose of the duce other Votes which would produce the Vote. The country would understand they consequences he dreaded. He would not were paying 150,0001. and receiving pro- be a party even to the first step in this perty worth 300,0001.

direction. MR. MONTAGUE CHAMBERS said, Mr. COWAN hoped the right hon. the he was at a loss to know whether they Chancellor of the Exchequer would postwere contributing to the purchase of se pone the Vote, as the Committee evidently venty or one hundred and forty acres. was not in a position to consent to it. He intended to vote against the proposition, because he knew not what was to be

MR. HUME said, the right hon. Gen

tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer done with the money. He was exceedingly desirous that the Committee should know ought to make some answer to the state. the purpose to which the land would be ment that had been made by the hon. Gen.

tleman (Mr. Locke). If anything like the devoted, whether it was proposed to erect a building on it, or whether it was proposed the result of this Vote, he thought there

system that prevailed in France were to be to use the land for nothing. He appre. was great danger in agreeing to it without hended this was only the commencement of

further information. claims for larger sums for the erection of

The CIIANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEbuildings upon this piece of land.

lle would not concur in any vote where in- QUER said, that hon. Gentleman (Mr. formation was not given of the appropria- Locke) had made a startling assertion, for tion of the

which there was not the slightest foundaSir JOHN YOUNG said, he believed tion, to raise an argument against this Vote. the Committee would unanimously agree

He could assure the hon. Gentleman he to the Vote, if a plan of the ground were (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had laid upon the table. He hoped a plan heard, for the first time, the statement would be laid on the table before the mo.

respecting this scheme, and he could say ney was paid out of the Exchequer.

with perfect confidence that it was an asMr. LOCKE said, he could not sit still sertion for which there was not the slightwhen he heard it stated that the Committee est imaginable foundation. was almost unanimous upon the Vote about

Vote agreed to. to be given. He had a strong opinion, which induced him to enter his protest

SUPPLY-FUNERAL OF THE DUKE OF against this Vote. But this was not on

WELLINGTON. account of the various arguments that had

(11.) 80,0001, for defraying the charge been used that night. He did not agree of the Funeral of the late Duke of Wellingin the low estimate that had been formed | ton. of the character of Englishmen by some MR. HUME said, he thought that behon. Gentlemen opposite, nor that the per- fore this money was voted there ought to fection of mechanical skill was due to the be an account rendered, if not a Committee Govermental schools. He had a great faith to inquire respecting alleged mismanage

moneyoung

ment in regard to some of the items, if | know whether in the expenses of the Lord report was true.

Chamberlain were included the charges on Mr. G. A. HAMILTON said, that it account of those foreign officers who had had been already explained by the right attended; and information was also wanted hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex- as to whether the 80,0001, included all chequer, that it was desirable to close the the charges which might be made. It accounts as early as possible. He could was with great pain that he reverted to a assure the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. circumstance connected with the funeral, Hume) that immediately after the Funeral which he thought it his duty, as a Member took place, means were taken to collect the of Parliament, to take that opportunity of various accounts, and he held in his hand mentioning. He believed that the aran abstract of those accounts so far as he rangements at the funeral were such as to had been able to obtain them. The prin- command general approbation, and that to cipal items were as follows: The accounts all it was a source of honourable delight in the Department of Public Works, includ- to see a great man's life, which had caring all that was done in the Cathedral, ried with it the admiration of the country amounted to 25,0001.; the Lord Chamber- and of the world, closed by a magnificent lain's and Earl Marshal's were not fully ren- and spontaneous effusion of popular feeldered yet, but were estimated at 33,0001.; ing which did credit to all concerned. The the expenses connected with the removal of arrangements of the day were most excelthe troops were 8,5001.; and there were ex- lent; but there was an arrangement which penses connected with their lodging, which was of another character; and it was a might make the amount something more. deplorable fact, that an accident occurred The accounts received at present exceeded a few days before, when the people of the 70,0001., but he believed the whole expenses metropolis and of the whole country were wonld not be 80,0001. All care should be paying their testimony of respect to the taken to exercise the most rigid and stern late Duke of Wellington by going to see economy in the settlement of the accounts, him lie in state at Chelsea Hospital. and as soon as they had been got in and [Cries of " Oh!”] He heard expressions examined a statement should be laid before of surprise. Was it a matter for surprise the House.

that one should allude to an occurrence LORD DUDLEY STUART said, that which cost the lives of at least three of he thought this a very unsatisfactory mode his fellow creatures ? It was but just to of proceeding. A gentleman in private say that those lives might have been prelife would not act thus; and hon. Members served had greater precautions been taken must expect to be told by their constituents and better arrangements made by those that they were not doing their duty. who had the responsibility on that occa[" Oh, oh!”] No doubt it was a very sion? He did not wish to say inore than invidious thing to make any objection, that he regretted the success of everything however slight, to this Vote, and in some connected with the solemnity should have degree he rejoiced at that, because it been marred by that most deplorable event showed the universal desire to do honour to which he had alluded. to the memory of the illustrious hero LORD JOHN MANNERS said, he was whom we had lost; and, for himself, he responsible for a certain share of the Vote was second to none in veneration of a man to which the noble Lord objected; and as whom he looked upon as the greatest man he was one of those who gave his right this country had ever produced. It would, hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchehowever, have been more respectful to the quer to understand that it was impossible people, more decent, and more constitu- to place before the House of Commons tional, to put off asking for the money till any reliable estimate before the funeral the Government had their estimate ready took place, he thought it right to say a With respect to the sum, he was not pre- few words in answer to the noble Lord's pared to say that it was excessive; but observations. He could assure the noble 80,0001. appeared a large sum; he would Lord and the Committee that from the not say it was not justifiable, and he moment when he heard that the funeral should be disposed to act liberally on such was to take place, he was most anxious an occasion. When it was stated that the that estimates should be prepared; but he funeral of Nelson cost 14,0001., he could found on inquiry that, owing to the limited not avoid ing attention to the wide dif- time given for making such great preparaference between the sums. He did not tions, the novel nature of the service re

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