as to the great variety of objects which it was endeavoured to attain in that institution. They ought certainly to have a great national library in this country, and a great number of books were collected at the Museum; but he could not think that the space now allotted in that building to the numerous articles of science and natural history was likely long to suffice. Now, if they had other buildings upon a sufficient space of ground, room might be found in them for some of those objects to which he referred, and the Museum might be left more entirely for the purpose of a library. These were the general objects which the Commissioners had in view. He believed that if this ground were now to be purchased, and the House should afterwards decide that they would not sanction any further outlay, the same spirit which led to the subscription of such very large sums for promoting the Great Exhibition, would, he had little reason to doubt, prompt the public to find means which would provide for the erection of the requisite buildings. He thought the mechanical inventions and the specimens of manufactures that would be collected, and the chymical lectures that would be given, would be matters of so much interest to those connected with manufactures in all parts of the Kingdom, that they would think it of the greatest importance, that in the metropolis an establishment should be maintained where so much valuable information might be obtained. He knew that the Museum of Practical Geology, which was erected a few years ago, had been the means of affording most valuable information to many persons. He thought it was to be lamented, that hitherto they had not had some great centre of the kind suggested by the Commissioners, and he could not doubt that, though the plan was at present imperfect, the spirit of the nation and the disposition of that House-if the sum now asked for was voted-would lead to the establishment of such an institution. His noble Friend (Lord Seymour) had said he understood that some of the scientific societies would not be willing to go as far as Kensington to their evening meetings. That was very possible with regard to many of these associations, but the Commissioners left the matter quite optional with the societies themselves. Any one who was acquainted with the Treasury knew that frequent applications were made by many of these scientific societies for the use of public buildings in which to hold their meetings; and it had been stated, on behalf of some of them, that they found house-rents so very expensive that they would be obliged to dissolve the societies if their applications were refused. It must be evident that, in such cases, the societies would be very glad to have rooms allotted to them in the proposed buildings, where their meetings might take place. He could not but believe that this was the commencement of a great improvement. He was very glad to find that the Government had taken up the question, and he believed that, under the guidance of the illustrious Prince who was at the head of the Commission, they would be able to render very great services to the country, and materially to promote the progress of science and art. MR. HUME said, he had heard the statement of the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer with great satisfaction, and he agreed that it was most desirable that the Government should come forward to aid the energy and public spirit of the people. The House must, however, consider what were to be the results of what they were now asked to do. The noble Lord (Lord Seymour) had inquired who were to have the management of the scheme, and on whom the responsibility would rest? IIe (Mr. Hume was perfectly satisfied, that under the superintendence of the illustrious Prince who had been alluded to as presiding over the Commission, matters would go on well enough; but the House must look at the future, and he asked them to consider what was the constitution of the Commission. The Crown alone possessed any power over it-that House had nothing to do with it-and before they invested public property in the hands of such a Commission they ought to look, not only to the management of the property, but also to the use which might eventually be made of it. He thought they ought also to consider whether, on the site which was recommended such an institution would afford all the advantages which it ought to afford. He had heard that it was intended to remove the National Gallery to Kensington, where, in his opinion, it would not be visited by one out of the ten persons who now went there. He doubted whether the pictures would not suffer more injury from the removal than they possibly could receive from the impurity of the atmosphere to which they were now subjected. MR. H. DRUMMOND: Sir, I entirely agree in what has been said relative to the public advantage to be derived from line drawing of a great painting; yet you are now going to try to force a taste on our people. If you want to learn the success of our artists, you have only to walk into our lobbies and look at our frescoesyou can there regale yourselves with specimens of English art. You are going to pay a very large sum of money for land; has the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated what he is going to do with the land when he gets it? If you are going to build upon it, let me ask where you will be able to find an architect? The new Houses of Parliament were to have been built for 700,000l.; we have expended 2,500,0007. upon them, and this room, which is, or ought to be, the room par excellence-that room where the business of the nation is transacted-is not. sufficient to hold us. First, it was impossible for us to hear one another; then we were alternately baked by heat and frozen by cold; we had either too much light or too little, and yet with all this experience of our architectural skill, we are about to embark in a wild scheme. I admit that in painting landscape scenery we excel all Europe, but in the fine arts generally we realise the old lines- "That which with them is always goût, giving every person in this country an opportunity of advancing himself in literature and science. I have no doubt but that the British Museum is an immense advantage to our people, but I have great doubts whether we are not now about to embark in a very crude speculation-a foolish attempt to force the population into a taste for the fine arts which nature has not given them. It sounds very liberal and noble to desire the education and progress of the national mind in those pursuits in which other nations excel; but I believe that, to endeavour to force this taste upon them, is just as absurd nationally as it would be individually, to attempt to make the same man a sculptor, a painter, a musician, a poet, an orator, a statesman, and a warrior. They all knew that was impossible, for there should be a division of labour in everything. It would be as difficult to make our people like the highest order of painting as to make the Italians like beef-steaks and porter. The late Exhibition has given us a very useful lesson. You never did exceed in the highest department even of manufactures. At no time have we done so. The other day I saw some specimens of working in iron, but even in this at no period were there in England such eminent workers in iron as abroad. I could give instances of the truth of what I am saying from the productions of many countries in Europe. Gentlemen who have travelled abroad know the beautiful ornaments of cathedrals called altar screens. In the northern countries these are made of stone, whilst in Spain, and in the Low Countries, they are always made of iron, and the makers of them are as well known as the eminent painters. In Spain the people will tell you who was the maker of such and such altar screens, just as in Venice they will tell you who was the painter of such and such a picture. They had never attained such a pitch of workmanship in iron in this country. Our cloth manufacture is at this moment inferior to that of other countries, and we are not able to keep up a supply even of patterns of ordinary articles of dress, but are obliged to go to France for them. Are you aware that not one of our great painters ever knew how to draw? Sir Joshua Reynolds never did. Sir Thomas Lawrence, it is notorious, did not know how to draw. I believe it would be exceedingly difficult MR. SPOONER said, he could not eonto find any man in this country who could sent to give his vote until he knew to execute what is a common every-day work, whom the land would be conveyed, who with French and Italians--namely, an out- would have the control of the land, and for With us is only gout." MR. EWART said, he should support the proposal, which was the purchase of a piece of land, and if the Committee did not afterwards wish to use it, he had no doubt the land would fetch the price which they were now about to give for it. He was, however, at issue with the hon. Member for West Surrey (Mr. Drummond) upon the question as to the taste of the English people for the fine arts. He contended that it was almost disgraceful to humanity that any nation, even blacks, should be devoid of taste for those great works, or with proper education unable to arrive at some degree of perfection in them. The plan of the Royal Commissioners was undoubtedly creditable in its conception, and would be energetically and successfully carried out. MR. CRAVEN BERKELEY expressed a hope that the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer would use his powerful influence to prevent the spoliation of the splendid works of art now going on in the National Gallery. what purposes the land would be employed | rivals throughout the world. It was imwhen they had purchased it. They were possible to conceive a plan more practical, told the new National Gallery was to be more important, or more urgent as regarderected on it, but he submitted there would ed the interests of the country. This land be some question of the expediency of re- was, in fact, virtually purchased, because moving the National Gallery so far from the Commissioners had entered upon a conthe metropolis. tract for its purchase with the confident expectation that Parliament and the country would assist them. When the purchase was fully completed, all further plans must receive the consideration of that House, and he was sure that House would not consent to raising any buildings, or any expenditure, without a very rigid scrutiny into all the arrangements, and taking care that the whole talent of the country should be brought into public competition. He hoped the Committee would agree to this Vote. By doing so they would not agree to any expenditure beyond the purchase of valuable property, which hereafter might be dealt with with as Parliament should think fit. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, the proposition before the Committee was not to build any new National Gallery, or to raise any other edifice whatever. The proposition before the Committee was whether they should contribute an equal sum with that already voted by the Royal Commissioners for the purchase of some land, which was the only plot of land which, he believed, ever could be purchased in the immediate vicinity of this metropolis. Hereafter, if it should be submitted to that House that it was a convenient site, among other things, for the National Gallery, which must be removed somewhere or other, for at present there was not a single place where works of art could be deposited in safety, it would be for the House fairly to consider that question, and it would be entirely under their control. All he wished the Committee now to do was to agree to vote this sum of 150,000., which he desired to see under the control of a Minister of the Crown, according to the language used in the Commissioners' Report. He had never proposed that the Committee should vote a sum of money to be applied out of the control of a Minister of the Crown responsible to that House. They had heard some' observations of hon. Members on the locality. It was the locality to which not only the population of this metropolis but the whole population of the United Kingdom resorted not two years ago, and he could not but believe that if the inducement were equal, the locality would be found convenient. The hon. Member for West Surrey (Mr. Drummond) seemed to imagine this was an attempt to force a feeling for fine pictures among the general community; when the fact was, the reference to the National pictures was a very subordinate portion of the Commissioners' Report. The scheme they recommended was neither more nor less than to give an industrial education to the people, and to bring the influence of science, especially, and of art, upon their manufacturing production. No attempt would be made to infuse a dilettante spirit into the working classes, but an opportunity would be given them of fitting themselves for competing with their MR. VERNON SMITH said, he thought that the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer had not replied to the objection of his (Mr. V. Smith's) noble Friend (Lord Seymour. He thought the right hon. Gentleman should give an answer to the question that had been put by the noble Lord the Member for Totnes (Lord Seymour), whether it was proposed to raise buildings at the public expense upon the ground that had been purchased, and whether the ground was to be under the control of the Commissioners or of a Minister of the Crown. MR. EWART said, he thought the exact state of the case did not seem to be quite understood by some hon. Members. From the results of the Great Exhibition there remained 175,000l.; with the fund the Commissioners bought seventy acres of land, and they offered it to the nation on condition that seventy acres more were added to it. LORD SEYMOUR said, they had not yet heard what was the quantity of ground to be purchased, or what portion was to be made over to the public. MR. CLAY said, he wished to know if a conditional contract had been entered into for all the land, because it was reported that the owner of a small portion of the land, four acres only, asked 70,000l. for it, and said nothing should induce him to take a farthing less. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, that offer had been treated with the contempt it deserved. There was no conditional agreement whatever. Se venty acres had been purchased by the in the individual energy of the country, and surplus of the Exhibition, and the Com- if they established central schools, they missioners offered to give the whole of their would lessen the individual exertion which purchase to the public, provided the nation had been the mainstay of the mechanical would assist them in the object they had in industry of the country. He had no objecview. There could be no difficulty in tion to grants of money for buildings for making arrangements satisfactory to the the exhibition of our excellent works of art; House for its control and mangement, but but if it were intended to introduce central he wished it to be distinctly understood schools by which degrees were to be estathat the whole of the land purchased would blished, so that individuals out of the pale of be given to the public. these schools might be marked (he alluded to the centralising system in France, where the Ecole Polytechnique had been esta blished, out of which there was no opportunity for any individual, however great his merit), he felt bound to raise his voice the moment the question was introduced. It might be said, that this was only the first Vote; but this first Vote might introduce other Votes which would produce the consequences he dreaded. He would not be a party even to the first step in this direction. MR. HUME said, he was satisfied with the assurance that the land should be under the control of a Minister of the Crown, but hoped the Vote would be postponed until the plan of the property was before the Committee. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, it would be very convenient if the Committee would now dispose of the Vote. The country would understand they were paying 150,000l. and receiving property worth 300,000l. MR. MONTAGUE CHAMBERS said, he was at a loss to know whether they were contributing to the purchase of seventy or one hundred and forty acres. He intended to vote against the proposition, because he knew not what was to be done with the money. He was exceedingly desirous that the Committee should know the purpose to which the land would be tion of the money. He SIR JOHN YOUNG said, he believed the Committee would unanimously agree to the Vote, if a plan of the ground were laid upon the table. He hoped a plan would be laid on the table before the money was paid out of the Exchequer. MR. LOCKE said, he could not sit still when he heard it stated that the Committee was almost unanimous upon the Vote about to be given. He had a strong opinion, which induced him to enter his protest against this Vote. But this was not on account of the various arguments that had been used that night. He did not agree in the low estimate that had been formed of the character of Englishmen by some hon. Gentlemen opposite, nor that the perfection of mechanical skill was due to the Govermental schools. He had a great faith MR. COWAN hoped the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer would postpone the Vote, as the Committee evidently was not in a position to consent to it. tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer MR. HUME said, the right hon. Genought to make some answer to the statement that had been made by the hon. Gen tleman (Mr. Locke). If anything like the the result of this Vote, he thought there system that prevailed in France were to be was great danger in agreeing to it without further information. ment in regard to some of the items, if report was true. know whether in the expenses of the Lord Chamberlain were included the charges on MR. G. A. HAMILTON said, that it account of those foreign officers who had had been already explained by the right attended; and information was also wanted hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex- as to whether the 80,000l. included all chequer, that it was desirable to close the the charges which might be made. It accounts as early as possible. He could was with great pain that he reverted to a assure the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. circumstance connected with the funeral, Hume) that immediately after the Funeral which he thought it his duty, as a Member took place, means were taken to collect the of Parliament, to take that opportunity of various accounts, and he held in his hand mentioning. He believed that the aran abstract of those accounts so far as he rangements at the funeral were such as to had been able to obtain them. The prin- command general approbation, and that to cipal items were as follows: The accounts all it was a source of honourable delight in the Department of Public Works, includ- to see a great man's life, which had caring all that was done in the Cathedral, ried with it the admiration of the country amounted to 25,000l.; the Lord Chamber- and of the world, closed by a magnificent lain's and Earl Marshal's were not fully ren- and spontaneous effusion of popular feeldered yet, but were estimated at 33,000l.; ing which did credit to all concerned. The the expenses connected with the removal of arrangements of the day were most excelthe troops were 8,500l.; and there were ex-lent; but there was an arrangement which penses connected with their lodging, which was of another character; and it was a might make the amount something more. deplorable fact, that an accident occurred The accounts received at present exceeded a few days before, when the people of the 70,000l., but he believed the whole expenses metropolis and of the whole country were would not be 80,000l. All care should be paying their testimony of respect to the taken to exercise the most rigid and stern late Duke of Wellington by going to see economy in the settlement of the accounts, him lie in state at Chelsea Hospital. and as soon as they had been got in and [Cries of "Oh!"] He heard expressions examined a statement should be laid before of surprise. Was it a matter for surprise the House. that one should allude to an occurrence which cost the lives of at least three of his fellow creatures? It was but just to say that those lives might have been preserved had greater precautions been taken and better arrangements made by those who had the responsibility on that occasion? He did not wish to say more than that he regretted the success of everything connected with the solemnity should have been marred by that most deplorable event to which he had alluded. LORD DUDLEY STUART said, that he thought this a very unsatisfactory mode of proceeding. A gentleman in private life would not act thus; and hon. Members must expect to be told by their constituents that they were not doing their duty. ["Oh, oh!"] No doubt it was a very invidious thing to make any objection, however slight, to this Vote, and in some degree he rejoiced at that, because it showed the universal desire to do honour to the memory of the illustrious hero whom we had lost; and, for himself, he was second to none in veneration of a man whom he looked upon as the greatest man this country had ever produced. It would, however, have been more respectful to the people, more decent, and more constitutional, to put off asking for the money till the Government had their estimate ready. With respect to the sum, he was not prepared to say that it was excessive; but 80,000l. appeared a large sum; he would not say it was not justifiable, and he should be disposed to act liberally on such an occasion. When it was stated that the funeral of Nelson cost 14,000l., he could not avoid calling attention to the wide difference between the sums. He did not LORD JOHN MANNERS said, he was responsible for a certain share of the Vote to which the noble Lord objected; and as he was one of those who gave his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to understand that it was impossible to place before the House of Commons any reliable estimate before the funeral took place, he thought it right to say a few words in answer to the noble Lord's observations. He could assure the noble Lord and the Committee that from the moment when he heard that the funeral was to take place, he was most anxious that estimates should be prepared; but he found on inquiry that, owing to the limited time given for making such great preparations, the novel nature of the service re |