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1039 Supply-Funeral of the {COMMONS} Duke of Wellington. 1040 quired, and the changes which were taking curred in the opinion that Parliament and place from day to day, it was impossible to the country had not paid too much for arrive at any estimate on which reliance witnessing an exhibition of feeling of could be placed; and he thought it far which any Englishman might be proud. better to give no estimate at all than one MR. S. CARTER again rose to address which might afterwards lead to disappoint- the House. He said he was entitled to ment. As far as his department was con- a hearing, and he was determined to exer

erned, the heads of all the expenditure cise his privilege. [Loud cries of “ Di. had, he believed, been collected, and hon. vide, divide !”] They could not put him Members would have an opportunity of down by uproar—he was of a different testing the accuracy of the accounts. kind of metal. The question before them Every person in his department had toiled was, whether they should vote away most assiduously and honestly, not only, 80,0001. of the public money? The sum he believed, with the view of carrying out was greatly too much. And he complainthe arrangements effectively, but also with ed of it as a breach of public faith. Hon. a desire that everything should be done as Gentlemen on that side of the House did economically as was consistent with the not intend to give their sanction to the solemnity of the occasion.

expenditure of an unlimited sum; but only MR. HUME said, he wished to remind that a sum should be expended bearing the Committee of a very good rule which some relation to precedents of cases before had been hitherto observed, that when a the House. Now, he was making a seriMinister undertook expenditure, he always ous charge, and he had a right to state laid an estimate on the table, and assumed his grounds for doing so. Really it was the responsibility; but when an estimate only by the grace and favour of Governcould not be supplied, no money was paid ment that they were not voting more. The till an account was produced. Why not Government had had all they had asked wait in the present instance till all the for granted them almost without a word, accounts were collected ?

and he was really much obliged to them MR. S. CARTER rose to address the for not asking 10,000 men and 160,0001. Committee, but was received with loud This Vote was five times that required for cries of " Oh, oh!” from the Ministerial the funeral of the great Lord Nelson. He benches.

called that unjust, and a fraud upon the MR. IIUME said, he commended the confidence of Members on that side of the hon. Member for Tavistock (Mr. S. Car-House. What was the good of precedents ter) as having, on a former occasion, if they were to multiply them by five ? done his duty. He (Mr. Hume) considered It had been said that this was a Vote that the Committee were acting in the that could never occur again. That was most disorderly manner. If the Govern- as good as saying that they would never ment would not keep their followers in have a great man in future. Well, perbetter order, and the Chairman could not haps, that was true, and the people would obtain that order which was necessary to be too wise to spend their money on the let the hon. Gentleman speak, business splendour of war. If, however, they could not be proceeded with. He (Mr. should be unfortunate enough to have a Hume) should, therefore, propose that the great man again, or another great funeral, Chairman should report progress, and ask they would have Government multiplying leave to sit again.

this precedent by five, and asking for MR. HUDSON said, he regretted that 400,0001. the hon, Member for Montrose should have COLONEL SIBTHORP said, he had one been the party who moved that progress be remark to make relative to the hon. Genreported. It was his wish that this Vote tleman who had just sat down. He had should have been passed unanimously and heard little or nothing of what fell from without observation, expressing the convic- him, but he did hear the word "metal", tion that, whatever the sum bestowed on escape from him. Now, from the specithe solemnity, it would not be grudged men they had had of the hon. Gentleman, after the satisfaction which had been he thought they were likely to find a great afforded to every Englishman who beheld deal of “ dross” in him. Sure he was the scene. The hon. Member for Mon- that, whatever circulation might take trose would have acted more in accordance place of the hon. Gentleman's metal, it with the universal feeling of the country would never be circulated through the had he agreed to pass the Vote, and con- United Kingdom. From all that he (Col.


Sibthorp) had witnessed, heard, and read, be no possible objection; and with regard he did not believe there was a poor man to the fourth Bill, "it having already passed or a poor woman in the country who would the House three successive Sessions, he not willingly give their mite to testify could not have imagined that it would have their veneration for the memory of one of been opposed now. When he introduced the greatest men who ever lived.

the Bills he said he would leave them over Lord DUDLEY STUART said, he till after the recess, and would be glad wished to repeat the question he had pre- to receive from any quarter any honest viously put as to whether the estimate of amendments. As far as he was concern80,0001. included the expenses of the ed, he was prepared to discuss them toforeign officers of distinction ? MR. G. A. HAMILTON said, be be- MR. HUME said, he must call upon

the lieved that the sum in question would more right hon. and learned Gentleman to withthan cover every possible expense of the draw the expression “any honest amendfuneral.

ments.' It was a mode of expression Vote agreed to.

which ought not to be addressed towards House resumed.

any hon. Member of that House.

Viscount MONCK said, that he thought TENANT COMPENSATION (IRELAND) it was the interest of the landlords to give BILL.

the tenants such an interest in the land as Order for Second Reading read. would induce them to invest their capital

Motion made, and Question proposed, in it. [Cries of " Question !”] “ That the Bill be read a Second Time An Hon. MEMBER submitted that upon Monday next.”

there was no question before the House. MR. KEOGH said, he begged to ask the MR. SPEAKER said, that the question right hon. and learned Attorney General before the House was, that the Bill be for Ireland what was the course he intend- postponed till Monday. ed to pursue with respect to the several VISCOUNT MONCK said, he did not Bills he had introduced ? He hoped an mean to offer any captious objection to opportunity would be given for discussing the Bill; but when he heard the right hon. them. With respect to two of the Bills, and learned Gentleman the Attorney Gehe considered them to be of the most ob- neral for Ireland describe the grievances jectionable nature. He begged to say, that arise from the right of distress for that one Bill for which the right hon. and rent, he was not prepared for the conclulearned Gentleman had taken the most sion he had come to. He (Viscount Monck) credit to himself, was one which not fifty was prepared to hear him say that having Members of that House could think of given great facilities to the landlord to resanctioning—no, not a single line of it. cover his rent and possession of his land, [Laughter.] This might appear to be a he would abolish that incident to the feudal strong observation, but he challenged the tenures, the right of distress for rent. He right bon, and learned Gentleman to dis- was very anxious that an early day should prove it. In fact, the provisions of the be fixed for the discussion of those Bills; Bill were rank nonsense. Instead of post- and as Thursday was unoccupied by any poning the Bills, he called upon the right other business, perhaps the right hon, and hon. and learned Gentleman to bring them learned Gentleman would not object to forward. He knew that the right hon. fixing that day. and learned Gentleman was anxious to MR. JOHN SADLEIR said, he thought postpone them, and that he had been ne- the right hon, and learned Gentleman could gotiating to postpone them, but they were have no difficulty in perceiving that it was anxious to test the sincerity of the right the intention of the Members for Ireland hon. and learned Gentleman, and therefore to give an honest opposition to these Bills. they asked for an early opportunity to dis- He (Mr. Sadleir) did not approve of their cuss them.

being sent to Ireland without previous MR. NAPIER said, if the hon. and discussion in the House of Commons; for learned Gentleman really entertained the that was alone the means of enabling the objection he now stated to the Bills before people of that country to understand them. the House, he ought to have given notice He hoped, therefore, that Thursday next of his intention to move that they should would be fixed for the Bills being brought be read that day six months. He under- forward. stood that to three of the Bills there could Sir JOHN YOUNG said, he was in


clined to approve generally of the Bills, he hoped the right hon. and learned Gen-
with the exception of the proposition to tleman would give them an opportunity of
continue the law of distress, which, after doing so.
the statement of the right hon. and learn- MR. WHITESIDE said, he wished to
ed Gentleman, he thought should be abol- make some observations on the remarks of
ished altogether. But he must say that the hon. and learned Member for Athlone
he could not award equal praise to the (Mr. Keogh), who had pronounced these
ineasure regarding compensations for im- Bills to be all nonsense.
provements. He represented a county in MR. KEOGHI said, he had pronounced
which Mr. Sharman Crawford's Bill was thus unfavourably of only one of the mea-
made the point of contest, and he had sures, and with reference to which Bill
opposed that Bill; but on the other hand, he adhered to every word that he had
he was prepared to say that the landlords of said.
the county were prepared for greater conces- Mr. WHITESIDE said, he was not at
sions than were proposed by the right hon. all surprised at the hon. and learned Gen-
and learned Gentleman. He thought the tleman adhering to a criticism of which he
measure should be discussed at the earliest thought he ought to be proud. It was the
possible period, because the question con- privilege of geniùs to exhibit itself in decla-
nected with land was one of intense inter- mation, and leave the work of patient legis-
est in Ireland; and if there was one class lation to inferior minds. The hon. and
in Ireland more than another whose inter- learned Member had spoken most severely
est it was to have a speedy arrangement of of the measure, and the hon. Member for
the question, that class was the landlord Carlow (Mr. Sadleir) said that the House
class. We trusted that the right hon. and of Commons is the place for the discussion
learned Gentleman would not remit the of this question; but if he (Mr. Whiteside)
Bills to a Select Committee, for if he did was to believe the hon. Member, a public
they would be lost.

discussion and decision had taken place The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE- elsewhere. Hon. Members were prepared QUER said, he thought there was to come to a discussion after deciding the chance, if the Bills were fixed for Thurs- question in another place. They underday, that they could be got through on took to speak the sentiments of the people that day, and then the discussion on the of Ireland; but he (Mr. Whiteside) was Budget was appointed for Friday, which he sure that it was of a portion only, for those did not think was likely to be terminated hon. Members who sat around himself and on that day. On Thursday, too, there was his friends were the representatives of a a subject of considerable importance, the large portion of the Irish people, and were Motion of the hon. Member for Westbury in no way inferior to those opposite. In (Mr. J. Wilson), was appointed for discus- submitting this Bill to the consideration of sion, which had an intimate relation to the the House, he felt conscious that it posfinancial statement of Friday last. With sessed many defects; but however defective respect to the Bills themselves, he was con- it might be, either in matter or style, or fident that the more they were known, the however defective it might be for the more they would be appreciated. Ile did amendment of those evils which existed, not think if they were brought forward on he felt sure that the justice and wisdom of Thursday they could be fully discussed; the House would discuss it in calmness, therefore he would recommend his right and improve all the defects it contained. hon, and learned Friend not to move any Mr. J. BALL said, he left to Her further with the Bills until after the Majesty's Ministers the boast of discussing

these Bills in calmness, but he thouglit the Mr. GLADSTONE said, he had not proof, so far as they had gone, was not heard why to-morrow should not be taken shown. He hoped, however, that meafor the discussion. It was important that sures of so much importance would have measures relating to Ireland should be ap- all the calmness and moderation which the proached by the House in a temperate and subject deserved.

He desired to press friendly spirit. Under all the circumstan- most earnestly upon the mind of the right ces, he thought these Bills should not be hon, and learned Attorney General for Irepostponed till after the recess.

land the great importance of these Bills. Mr. G. H. MOORE said, he was quite The subject was one upon which honest prepared to meet the discussion of these men might differ in opinion; but he thought Bills in a calm and temperate spirit, and a fair and temperate discussion would bring

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them to be of one mind. The people of object being to decide whether the publiIreland were waiting for the decision of cation was liable to stamp duty or not. that House. The Commission appointed An argument took place in the Excheseven years ago reported that the mea- quer, and the result was, that three of the sures were of the utmost importance to four Judges were of opinion that the paper tenants' improvements. They had waited was not liable to duty, but the fourth, all that time for something to be done, Mr. Baron Parke, was of opinion that it and a deep-rooted dissatisfaction existed in was liable. The difference of the opinion many parts of the country. The decision of the Judges turned entirely on the quesof the House, he hoped, would be speedily tion whether the definitions be (the Attaken and prove satisfactory to the inha- torney General had read, were separato bitants of the sister island.

and distinct definitions, or whether the The CHANCELLOR OF Tie EXCIIE- third definition was a qualification of the QUER said, he could not secure the Bills former. The three Judges thought it was coming on to-morrow, that not being a Go- a qualification of the former; but Mr. vernment day; all they could do was to Baron Parke considered it a separate defiput them on the paper for that day, and nition. The argument took place before take the change of being able to bring the present Government came into office,

and when he (the Attorney General) beMotion, by leave, withdrawn.

came Attorney General he found the law Bill to be read 2° To-morrow.

officers of the former Government were of

opinion that the decision of the Exchequer NEWSPAPER STAMP DUTIES. was not satisfactory, and that it was neThe ATTORNEY GENERAL said, cessary to take the opinion of a higher that, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill Court of appeal. He certainly should have to amend the law relating to the Stamp agreed in the course taken by his predeDuties upon Newspapers, he would not cessors, and, finding their opinion so exdetain the House at any length. By the pressed, an appeal to the Court of Exche6 & 7 Will. 4, chap. 76, which was the quer Chamber was determined on. The Act imposing a duty on newspapers, a llouse would recollect that great anxiety definition was given of what should be was manifested as to those proceedings in considered a newspaper within the mean the Exchequer, and the course that would ing of the Act, and it was as follows:- be adopted by the Government; and ques

' Any paper containing public news, intelli- tions had been put to him with very great gence, or occurrences printed in any part of the courtesy by hon. Gentlemen on the other United Kingdom to be dispersed and made pub- side, and he had explained to them as well lic; also any paper printed in any part of the as he could the state of the question. United Kingdom weekly or oftener, or at intervals However, his right hon. Friend the Channot exceeding twenty-six days, containing only or principally advertisements; and also any paper cellor of the Exchequer thought it was containing any public news, intelligence, or oc- right to adhere to the opinion expressed currences, or any remarks or observations thereon, by the majority of the Court of Exchequer, printed in any part of the United Kingdom for and was extremely desirous, for the sake sale, and published periodically, or in parts, or numbers, at intervals not exceeding twenty-six

of literature, and to prevent the litigation days between the publication of any two such likely to occur, that à measure should be papers, parts, or numbers, where any of the said introduced that should support that opinpapers, parts, or numbers respectively shall not ion. It was under these circumstances exceed two sheets of the dimensions hereinafter that he asked leave now to introduce a specified (exclusive of any cover or blank leat, or Bill to repeal that portion of the schedule any other leaf upon which any advertisement or other notice shall be printed), or shall be pub- to which he had called attention, and upon lished for sale for a less sum than 6d., exclusive which the doubt rested, and give a subof the duty by this Act imposed thereon.” stantive definition of a newspaper, which Now, a paper called the Household Nar- would exclude from the operation of the rative of Current Events had been pub- stamp duty the publication in question and lished by Messrs. Bradbury and Evans, other publications of a like nature, conand it was the opinion of the Stamp Office taining news, but not published at interthat that paper, although published at in- vals of less than twenty-six days. He tervals of more than twenty-six days, was hoped hon. Gentlemen would not think it liable to stamp duty, and, accordingly, an necessary to avail themselves of the opporinformation was filed against the publish- tunity of the introduction of this Bill for ers to recover the penalties incurred, the entering into any discussion of that very wide question, “ taxes on knowledge,” as the new definition of a newspaper was just they termed it, which could only have the as unsound as the old one; and, if under effect of impeding a measure the object of it they prosecuted persons for publishing which was to put a stop to litigation; but unstamped papers, they would again be that they would consent as rapidly as obliged to introduce a new declaratory possible to allow the Bill to pass into a Bill. In a future stage of the Bill he law.

should feel it his duty to point out how MR. MILNER GIBSON said, that he completely inadequate this Bill would be to had no wish to enter into the general define what was a newspaper. In concluquestion, but he wished to advert to a sion, he begged to ask the opinion of Mr. point of form. The hon. and learned At- Speaker upon the point of form to which tory General said that he was going to in- he had alluded ? troduce a Bill to declare what a newspaper MR. SPEAKER said, that no doubt, if was in such a way as to exclude from the the effect of the Bill was to impose an adoperation of the present Newspaper Stamp ditional Stamp Duty, it should be introAct certain monthly publications. He (Mr. duced by a Committee of the whole House; Gibson) thought, however, that the defini- it was, however, impossible for him to say tion which the hon, and learned Gentleman whether this would be its effect until it was had given would extend the operation of introduced, and he had an opportunity of the Stamp Act to publications which were examining it. not now liable to duty; and if that were so, MR. MILNER GIBSON would suggest he presumed that the House should resolve whether it would not be better for the itself into a Committee upon the News- hon. and learned Attorney General to keep paper Stamp Laws before the Bill was in- himself on the safe side, and to move troduced. He thought that the proposed the Bill in a Committee of the whole Bill would extend the operation of the House? Stamp Act, because, from the hon, and The ATTORNEY GENERAL said, learned Attorney General's remarks, it ap- that in his opinion, the Bill would not peared that no papers were for the future bring within the definition of newspapers to be considered newspapers which were publications not now liable to the Stamp published at a longer interval than once in Duties. He would, therefore, take his twenty-six days, but that all papers pub. chance, and beg leave to introduce the lished at less intervals tban twenty-six days Bill then. were to be considered newspapers.

Leave given. papers of more than two sheets, Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. and at a higher price than 6d., might be Attorney General and Mr. Solicitor Genpublished more frequently than once in eral. twenty-six days, without being liable to Stamp Duty. These, however, would be RAILWAY AMALGAMATION-RAILWAY brought under the operation of the Stamp

AND CANAL BILLS. Act by the new definition given by the MR. HENLEY, in rising to move the hon. and learned Attorney General, and appointment of a Select Committee on therefore he thought that the introduction the subject of Railway Amalgamation, as of the Bill should be preceded by a Com- applied to Railway and Canal Bills about mittee of the whole House. Great injus- to be brought under the consideration of tice had been done to small newspaper Parliament, said he hoped the House would proprietors throughout the country whose allow him to make a few remarks, and at monthly papers had been suppressed by that late hour he would promise that they letters from the Inland Revenue Office. should be but few. The House was aware When, however, they proceeded against that at the present moment public notice Mr. Dickens, a gentleman of great influ- had been given of a considerable number ence and popularity, they were frightened of Railway Bills that were to be brought out of their proceedings, and brought in a before them in the course of the Session Bill to declare that these publications never – he believed to the number of 150 or had been newspapers.

What compensa- 160-and amongst that number there were tion did they intend to offer to those per- some twenty of what were called Amalgasons whose papers had been suppressed on mation Bills; and of that twenty, some of the ground that they were newspapers ? them were of a nature so large, that the He was convinced that when the new Bill House had, perhaps, never had to deal came to be discussed it would appear that with Bills of such magnitude. It was


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