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provement, because they knew that arrangements were being made for a very extensive Chinese immigration to Cuba; and therefore there was reason to hope that free labour might soon be employed to compete, and to compete successfully, with slave labour in that island. If that hope should be realised, and if the Cuban slave trade should cease, the West India colonies would then be no longer exposed to what he could not but look upon as an unfair competition. As he had said before, he did not think that there was now any practical difference of opinion on either side of the House as to anything they had to do. He believed that the question which the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wilson) had raised was one purely critical and retrospective, and he was glad to think that that was the last time they should ever have to discuss in that House the question of the sugar duties.

Motion agreed to.

THE YARMOUTH PETITION-ELECTION

PETITION RECOGNISANCES.

MR. MILNER GIBSON, on presenting a petition from the gentlemen who had signed the recognisances in the petition of Mr. Torrens M'Cullagh against the sitting Members for Great Yarmouth, said that they believed they had bound themselves by the recognisances they had signed, regretting that the sureties had been declared insufficient, and praying the House to redress the grievance under which they laboured, and to take means for preventing that recurrence in future. He wished to call the attention of the House to the petition presented by Mr. M'Cullagh, who claimed to have been elected for Great Yarmouth, and who disputed the return. He did not ask the House to review the decision of the examiner of recognisances, or to pass any opinion of its validity, or in any way to sit as a court of appeal. He was well aware that the decision of the examiner in these matters was final and conclusive. His object was to show that, on the face of these proceedings, circumstances had arisen which rendered it necessary for Parliament to consider whether it might not be necessary to amend the Act itself under which proceedings were taken in reference to the trial of election petitions. The reason of the decision was, that the words "sitting Members" were used instead of "sitting Member." On the same day the examiner had reported that a similar recognisance in

the case of the Bridgenorth election petition, in which the words "sitting Members" were also used, was unobjectionable. But, the objection being taken in the case of Great Yarmouth, he decided that that objection was valid, and therefore fatal to any further proceedings with the petition. He did not mean to reflect, in the sightest degree, upon the examiner of recognisances; no doubt he had endeavoured to discharge his duty conscientiously, in reference to what he believed to be the requirements of the Act of Parliament. But he (Mr. Gibson) found fault with the Act itself, and asked that it should be amended. Petitioners would be placed in a great difficulty if there was no power of amending technical objections to recognisances. In this case the petitioner had found his sureties; nobody contended for a moment that they were not good and substantial sureties, and capable of undertaking all the liabilities required by the Act. The fifth clause of the Act gave the form of the recognisance, and added, "With such alterations as may be necessary to adapt such form to the circumstances of each case," clearly showing that the Act contemplated necessary alterations. There ought to have been a power in the Act to enable the examiner to amend, and to call on the sureties to sign the amended form, so that they might still be liable for costs, if the decision were against them. The Motion he had to submit was in the following terms:

"That a Select Committee be appointed to in

quire into the operation of the Act 11 & 12 Vic., cap. 98, as regards Recognisances, and to report their opinion whether it is expedient to amend that Act."

The fourteen days having expired, it was out of Mr. M'Cullagh's power to present a new petition. Another circumstance in this case was, that the hearing of the objection was taken at an earlier period than the stipulated three days after notice of the objection. He (Mr. Gibson) brought forward this matter solely on public grounds, in order that technicalities might not be allowed to stand in the way of justice.

MR. HUME seconded the Motion.

MR. WALPOLE said, that if the right hon. Gentleman had made a Motion in conformity with the prayer of the petition, it would have had the effect of doing away with a rule that the House had expressly

Amalgamation. 1202 established, with regard to election recog- should be appointed on this subject, till all nisances. But that question had not been those petitions had been reported upon to raised. Four years ago a question arising the House. The second observation he out of election recognisances had come wished to make, was to guard himself before that House. A discussion then against the infringement of an important took place respecting the propriety of rule. The great object of throwing upon considering whether those recognisances the sitting Member the duty of entering should be amended. and the petition al- into recognisances, was, that he should not lowed to go on or not. It was contended, take advantage of any default or neglect of on the one hand, that the petitioner ought his own, in having imperfect recognisances, not to be deprived of his right to petition and to ensure the payment of costs which against the sitting Member, and, on the could not be recovered, unless the recogother hand, that the sitting Member had a nisances were valid in form and law. There right to take advantage of every legal was another object: not only to provide objection. A Committee was appointed, against the default or neglect of the petiand soon after an Act was passed con- tioner in not making his recognisances solidating and amending the laws relating perfect, but also to prevent frauds which to election petitions and recognisances, might otherwise be practised in putting which provided that the decision of the the recognisance in a defective form, so examiner with reference to recognisances that the sitting Member, in consequence should be final and conclusive. Such of such defects, would not be entitled to being the law, it seemed clear that the last thing the House ought to do would be to repeal what it had taken such pains to establish, that these matters should be settled out of the House, and not give rise to party discussions in the House. The right hon. Gentleman had alluded to the cases of the Bridgenorth election petition, but there was a distinction between those two cases. In the Bridgenorth case, the question which was raised was not brought before the examiner, and he had not an opportunity of giving an opinion one way or the other with regard to the recognisances. But when the Great Yarmouth case was brought before the examiner, the agents of the sitting Member specifically brought this objection to his notice; it was his duty to decide upon it, and he held that it was fatal. With regard to the point of the three days, the right hon. Gentleman would find that the Act did not give three clear days; and as the notice was given on the 23rd, and the objection entertained on the 26th, it could not be said that the examiner had exceeded his

recover the costs to which he was entitled. The right hon. Gentleman would have to consider these points, and also whether he ought not to draw a line between technical and substantial errors. He (Mr. Walpole) should not object to the appointment of a Committee; but he ought to add, that the appointment of the Committee must not be considered as having any effect on existing petitions.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY begged to ask if the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. M. Gibson) intended his Committee to have a retrospective operation?

MR. MILNER GIBSON did not contemplate anything more than was contained in the order of reference. It might be necessary to inquire into particular cases to discover the abuses that existed, and their remedy; but he could not foresee what course the Committee would decide upon.

Motion agreed to.

RAILWAY AMALGAMATION.

on Railway and Canal Bills.

MR. HENLEY moved the appointment duty. The proposition the right hon. of the Members of the Select Committee Gentleman now made was, that a Committee should be appointed to see whether any amendments could be introduced into the Act, giving the examiner power to amend recognisances by correcting technical and clerical errors. He (Mr. Walpole) had no objection to such a Committee being appointed, but he wished to make two observations upon it. The first was, that as there were several election petitions then depending, he thought it would be undesirable that a Committee

MR. JAMES MACGREGOR said, he had no objection to any Gentleman nominated upon the Committee, but he thought that, in addition to those already named, there should be some Members specially identified with the railway interest. If the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade had no objection to this, he would move that certain Gentlemen connected with that interest should be added.

MR. SPEAKER said, that the hon. Gen- | understand railway matters, they mu stbe tleman could not then make such a Motion; wanting in common sense. he must give notice of it.

MR. JAMES MACGREGOR said, he should be sorry to have to give such a notice without the assent of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade. If, however, he could obtain that assent, he would on Monday next move that the names of Mr. Robert Stephenson, Lord Barrington, and General Anson should be added to the Committee.

MR. FREWEN said, that the Committee, as nominated by the right hon. President of the Board of Trade, only consisted of twelve Members; and if the three names

suggested by the hon. Member for Sandwich (Mr. M'Gregor) were added, there would not be more than fifteen Members; the number which the House had fixed as the limit for a Select Committee.

MR. HENLEY said, that if the House and the railway interest wished that the additional names proposed should be placed upon the Committee, he should offer no objection to it. The only reason he did not place on the Committee some Gentlemen connected with the railway interest was, because there were so many directors in that House, that he was afraid to offend by making a selection.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY said, he quite agreed with the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Muntz). He thought that none of these railway magnates should be admitted upon the Committee; they would be more useful in the character of witnesses than of members.

The Committee, as nominated, agreed to.
The House adjourned at Nine o' clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS,

Friday, December 10, 1852.

MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-2 West India Co

lonies, &c.; Loans Act Amendment; Commons Inclosure.

MILITARY EMIGRATION TO THE CAPE. The DUKE of RICHMOND rose to present a Petition from Anthony Alexander O'Reilly, late a Colonel in Her Majesty's Service, and since a settler in the colony of the Cape of Good Hope, complaining of having suffered severe loss at the hands of the Kafirs, and praying for relief. The noble Duke knew nothing at all personally of the individual whose name was attached to it; but that gentleman had sent him a MR. HINDLEY said, he did not at all certificate of his having served as an officer agree with the hon. Member for Sandwich. in the British Army for fifty-two years, He thought that the Committee should be during which time it would appear, from wholly independent of the railway interest. general and private orders, that he had He was quite sure that the Gentlemen merited and gained the esteem of his comnamed for the Committee would do per-manding officers and fellow soldiers. This fect justice to it; and, if they did not, the gentleman was, a few years ago, prevailed railway companies had sufficient influence in that House to protect themselves. If they placed on the Committee General Anson, the chairman of the London and North-Western Company, they would have a demand that the Chairman of the Great Northern should also be on the Committee, and in like manner the chairmen of other railways.

MR. GEACH said, he thought it desirable that when questions connected with a particular interest were to be investigated, that interest should be represented on the Committee, whose deliberations would, he believed, be materially assisted by the presence of Gentlemen more particularly acquainted with railway matters.

MR. MUNTZ begged to remark that if the Committee desired any information from the chairmen of railways, they could be examined as witnesses. If the Members of the House generally did not themselves

upon by the inducements which were held out by the late Government, and after fifty-two years' service in the Army, to dispose of his commission for the purpose of settling at the Cape of Good Hope. He accordingly took a farm there, and was going on remarkably well. He had a great quantity of stock, was possessed of the best implements of husbandry, and was in all respects a thriving farmer, when the Kafir war broke out-one of those "little wars" which had always proved so detrimental to this country, and which would have been settled immediately had they sent out 7,000, or 8,000 British Infantry at the beginning. The consequence was that the Kafirs made an inroad upon this gentleman's farm, seized his cattle and horses, the Hottentot levies deserted him, and it was with the utmost difficulty that he and his son escaped with their lives. By that inroad of the savages he was totally and

1205

Relations of Landlord

{DEC. 10, 1852} and Tenant in Ireland. 1206

entirely ruined; and now, after fifty-two | impossible that the Government could give

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compensation for losses so sustained. Their doing so now would involve the necessity of making compensation in every similar case which might arise.

Petition read and ordered to lie on the table.

RELATIONS OF LANDLORD AND TENANT
IN IRELAND,

years spent in the service of his country, the only way in which this gentleman was at present enabled to get a bit of bread to put in his mouth was by going to labour in the fields. Now, he (the Duke of Richmond) contended that this was a case of very great hardship. He contended also, that the Government ought not to recommend officers in the Army, or any other persons, to go out as settlers to the Colonies, unless they intended to protect them there against the inroads of savage tribes. And, moreover, he would say to old officers, if they would take his advice, "Stick to the Army, and don't go out as settlers,' for nineteen out of twenty, after they became settlers, deeply regretted having left a service in which, at least, they had enjoyed a well-merited reputation. The case he had mentioned was, he repeated, one of very great hardship, and left a considerable amount of responsibility on the Go-tunity of putting his question and receiving vernment which encouraged such settlements. He did not know whether the Government at home could be of any service to the petitioner; still he did think that it was a case of very crying hardship, and one that, at all events, justified him in having occupied their Lordships' time and attention for a few moments.

The EARL of DESART thanked the noble Duke for the notice he had given of his intention to present the petition, and assured him, that neither Her Majesty's Government nor he (the Earl of Desart) felt less commiseration than did his noble Friend himself for this gentleman's case. The facts of the case were these. This gentleman had served fifty-two years in the Army, but in 1848 he sold out, and availing himself of certain indulgences which were given by the Government, invested the proceeds of the sale of his commission, 4,000l., in the purchase of land at the Cape of Good Hope; but at the end of the year 1851 an inroad of Kafirs took place upon his farm, and owing to the treachery of his servants he had difficulty in escaping with his life, his premises were destroyed, as the noble Duke had stated, and he had since been compelled to work in the fields. He granted that it was a case which demanded the warmest commiseration; at the same time, however, it must be remembered that when this gentleman sold his commission, he assumed the character and placed himself exactly in the position of any other colonist at the Cape. Under these circumstances it was

The EARL of RODEN said, he was anxious to put a question to his noble Friend the First Lord of the Treasury, on a subject of the deepest importance, not only to that part of the Empire to which it referred, but to the Empire at large. In doing so, however, he must ask pardon of the noble Earl for having departed from the custom of that House, and omitted to give him the usual notice. It was now Friday night, and if he were then to give notice to the noble Earl, he would not have an oppor

an answer until Monday, and he feared that great apprehension and anxiety would arise in the minds of those to whom the subject referred in the interval. On referring to the reports of the proceedings in the other House of Parliament, a few days ago, he confessed he was extremely surprised and alarmed to find, on the introduction of certain Bills connected with landlord and tenant arrangements in Ireland that one of the Bills so presented to the House was one that was better known by the name of "Mr. Sharman Crawford's Bill." Now, he begged to remind their Lordships that that measure had been twice at least under the consideration of the House of Commons, and on each occasion had been almost unanimously rejected. It had been conceded, not alone by Gentlemen seated on one side of the House or the other, but by men of all parties, that that Bill partook of a character which was calculated to overthrow the best interests of property in whatever country it might chance to become law. He was sure that no one in their Lordships' House would ever sanction so unjust a proposition, and therefore he had no fear of its ever passing into law; but the circumstance to which he had alluded must, he was confident, have the effect of greatly agitating the minds of all persons who were possessed of property in Ireland, and of imparting feelings of triumph to those who having no property themselves wished to destroy the property of others. The night before last this measure was introduced with other measures to the con

sideration of the House of Commons, and
with those other measures was proposed
for a second reading, and the proposer of
that second reading was one of Her Ma-
jesty's Ministers, a colleague of his noble
Friend at the head of the Government.
He (the Earl of Roden) would not attempt
to express
what must be the feelings of all
loyal men, all men of property in Ireland,
when they found that, so far as they had
gone, Her Majesty's Ministers seemed to
have sanctioned a measure which contained
propositions of so Communist a character
that it had been twice rejected by the
House of Commons as one which it was
totally impossible that Parliament could
give its assent to. The question which he
would take the liberty of putting to his
noble Friend was, whether the proceedings
which had been adopted in the other House
of Parliament had been taken with his
sanction; and in case the Select Committee
to which the Bill had been referred should
unhappily sanction the measure as one
proper to be adopted, whether Her Ma-
jesty's Government were prepared to sup-
port and carry it into law?

subject which more deserved, and particu-
larly at this moment, the attention of those
who were anxious to see the landed pro-
perty of Ireland recovering from the de-
pressed condition in which in which it had
been for the last few years.
The conse-
quence of the attention which the Irish
Government gave to this subject was, that,
with great pain and labour, the Attorney
General for Ireland, more especially assist-
ed by the Solicitor General and the Chief
Secretary for Ireland, prepared what might
be almost considered as a code of laws hav-
ing reference to the relations between land-
lord and tenant, comprised in four separate
Bills, every one having distinct objects,
but all connected closely together, and
bearing upon one another. The first of
these Bills had, he believed, the effect of
facilitating the application of capital to
land by the tenant for life, the tenant for
life being, under certain circumstances,
authorised to charge the expense as an
advance from himself personally to the
estate, consequently rendering facilities for
the application of capital to land. The
second Bill gave facilities, under certain
circumstances, for the application of capi-
tal to the land by the tenants, with the con-
sent of their landlords, subject to the con-
trol and superintendence of the Board of
Works especially, the machinery of which
had been employed with great success of
late years in Ireland. The third was a
most important Bill for consolidating and
bringing into one statute the whole of the
law having reference to the relations be-
tween landlord and tenant in Ireland—a
work of great detail and involving much
consideration, but which, if successfully
carried into effect, would not only mate-
rially improve, but greatly simplify and
render of much more easy reference, the

The EARL of DERBY said, he had no difficulty in answering the question of his noble Friend, because his attention had been called to the matter he referred to yesterday or the day before by some of the representatives for Ireland, who shared in the apprehensions which his noble Friend entertained in consequence of what took place in the House of Commons two or three nights ago. But in order to make intelligible what did take place on that occasion, he would explain what his noble Friend might be perfectly familiar with, but some of their Lordships might not so well know the circumstances under which the transaction took place to which his noble Friend had adverted. It was in the know-existing law, which was now spread over ledge of his noble Friend, and, probably, some hundred of statutes. The fourth of most of their Lordships, that the atten- Bill was intended to settle the terms under tion of the Irish Government, and especially which compensation could be claimed by of the Attorney General for Ireland, of the tenant and enforced against the landwhom he might say that no Government land for unexhausted improvements, subhad ever had the services of a more able, ject to certain restrictions and regulations. zealous, and useful officer, had since their These four Bills, all bearing upon one anaccession to office been directed to the best other, stood a few nights ago for a second means of developing the resources of Ire- reading in the House of Commons; and he land, of encouraging the application of thought their Lordships would readily agree capital to the land of Ireland, and of im- that if they were to pass at all, or receive proving the relations subsisting between due consideration by Parliament, it was desilandlord and tenant in Ireland; and how-rable that no time should be lost with a view ever delicate and difficult some portions of of obtaining a second reading of those Bills, that subject might be, he was sure their and in order that they might be sent with Lordships would admit that there was no the least delay to the investigation of Com

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