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mons which tended to impair the gene- Gentleman had prepared himself to attempt ral credit of the country, and to prevent a similar course. He had hoped that the growth of that facility of monetary the present Chancellor of the Exchequer transactions which prevailed when the re- might have been the successful Minister venue was in a prosperous state. He who might hereafter have rested his claim thought that any Chancellor of the Ex- to public approbation on the ground of chequer abandoned his duty if, for the having effected a larger operation for the sake of repealing a particular tax, or of benefit of his country in this respect than acquiring for the moment the applause of had been accomplished by his most disthose who surrounded him, he forgot what tinguished predecessors. In that speech was due to the higher interests of the which the right hon. Chancellor of the State, and did not always bear in mind Exchequer delivered at Aylesbury, ten that there was a large encumbrance of months was the period prescribed as nedebt, which could only be diminished by cessary by the then proposed Sinking the maintenance and due application of a Fund to raise the public debt to par. surplus revenue. In saying this he was Within ten months that desirable object far from expressing opinions which were might not be accomplished; but he confined to himself and to hon. Gentle- feared, by the course the Government men near him. He had the authority was taking, by snatching at the paltry of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, when discussing at Aylesbury in 1849 the importance of maintaining a large Sinking Fund for the purpose of creating an impression on the debt, and supposing the Chancellor to be in possession of a surplus, said—

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Why, in old times we should have had some one coming forward and proposing the abolition of some paltry tax which, while it would be no great blow to the revenue, would, individually, give scarcely any relief. Is this the means by which to regenerate imperilled agriculture? Certainly not. What I propose is, that a real sinking fund shall be maintained, which will, in less than ten months, raise Consols above par,

and thus enable landlords and tenants to borrow

money to apply to their land at 3 per cent interest

instead of four or five."

The right hon. Gentleman, speaking at that time to an assembled multitude of agriculturists, said—

"This is your real remedy-equal taxation and cheap capital. If my recommendations be adopted, the public credit will be maintained; it will give the farmer independence; it will recover from their present state of depression the landlords of

the country; they will then obtain capital for the improvement of their estates at a low rate of interest, and if you do not gain that relief which the country has a right to give you, we must consider

what we are next to do."

Those were principles in which he (Mr. Goulburn) cordially concurred, and which he regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not now that he had power disposed to carry into effect. The right hon. Gentleman had been pleased, on a former night, to speak in favourable terms of the success which attended the measures that he (Mr. Goulburn) had on two several occasions brought forward for reducing the interest of the public debt; and he wished sincerely that the right hon. VOL. CXXIII. [THIRD SERIES.]

remission of taxation of 2,500,000l., they would perhaps for ever lose the opportunity of conferring great and permanent benefit on the country. The reduction of the public debt would have a beneficial effect on all the burdens of the country. It would confer still greater benefit on the agricultural, manufacturing, and commercial classes, by placing at their disposal capital at a low rate of interest, and enabling them to pursue their operations with increased activity and enterprise. If he might presume to give an opinion to the House of Commons-having heard from various quarters that the acceptance of half the Malt Tax was more a matter of feeling than of profit-that it was not expected to derive from it that extent of benefit which some would consider compensation for past injury, or to give to the consumer that relief which they all desired to afford-if he might presume to give an opinion, he would say, "instead of giving up that 2,500,000l. of revenue, apply your surplus so as hereafter to render feasible great financial reductions." His great feeling of regret with respect to the Budget which had been announced was that this course had not been pursued. The right hon. Gentleman opposite seemed to object to discussing the Budget in parts, and in that opinion he had shown that he (Mr. Goulburn) entirely agreed. If he thought an attempt was made unwisely to repeal the Malt Tax, he naturally objected to the particular tax which was proposed as the means of effecting a repeal in itself objectionable. He did not deny that it might be proper, under circumstances which required it, to impose a Houso

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the evening, that they had remedied the inequalities of the tax in its present shape. The right hon. Gentleman must have looked upon the Resolutions on the table with a very paternal eye if he could consider that they remedied any of the grievances which had been made the subject of complaint. He said, "We have reduced the number of exemptions.' Yes, by impos

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Tax, properly distributed and properly mo- | reasons which had induced the Government dified. He objected last year to the House to propose alterations in the Income Tax; Tax then proposed, because he thought it and he said, as a noble Lord said early in was not framed upon the principles on which a House Tax, if imposed, ought to be placed; and he objected equally to the House Tax now proposed, because, though avoiding some of the defects of that of the right hon. Baronet (Sir C. Wood), it had fallen into others which he (Mr. Goulburn) thought essentially fatal to it continuance. But it was not necessary for him to discuss the substitute, when he objected to the re-ing the tax upon a class of persons with peal of the tax the produce of which it was respect to whose capacity to bear it there to replace. The right hon. Gentleman had would be shown to be great doubt when said that this direct tax was necessary to it should come under discussion herecomplete the scheme propounded by the after. He said, "We have applied the Administration of Sir Robert Peel; that tax to the funds in Ireland:" exemptSir Robert Peel recommended the imposi- ing every class in Ireland but one, they tion of direct taxation upon principles the had rather added to the exemptions than same as those on which the present House reduced them. With respect to that parTax was to be supported. Not so. Direct ticular class on whom he meant that the taxation was introduced by Sir Robert Peel burden of the tax should fall, the right when indirect taxation had been carried to hon. Gentleman had no foundation for asits full extent and found unproductive. It suming that there was anything in the was introduced to make up for a great and proceeding of 1842 which justified the imaccumulating deficiency; and so far from position of a tax upon the funds in Ireland the tax now proposed being the completion received by residents in Ireland. of the plan which originated with Sir principle in the Act of 1842 was, that perRobert Peel, it was one merely made for sons residing in Great Britain should pay the temporary object of affording a relief the tax upon any income received by which was but partially sought, and was them in Great Britain, though the pronot likely to be generally beneficial. The perty might be in Ireland or any other right hon. Gentleman said the House Tax country; land, professions, trades, and recommended itself, because there had been funds of persons resident in Ireland were a sacrifice upon the Window Tax, and that equally exempt. Ireland was exempted the burden would not exceed that to which because other taxes were then imposed on the country had been subjected from ten to Ireland, which were to be a compensation to twenty years ago. But it would be well Great Britain for alone bearing the Income for him to remember that if there was a tax Tax. If the Government selected one parwhich at no distant period had excited the ticular class of property in Ireland, and feelings of the country more than any that the funded property, for this tax, they other, and given occasion to petitions for would therefore as clearly violate their conits repeal, it was the House Tax. The tract with the public creditor by making table of the House of Commons was loaded this property alone the subject of taxation, with such petitions in 1832, 1833, and as they would by the imposition of a sepa1834. It was stated to be more odious rate duty on funded property here. The than the income tax. If the Government right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the should now succeed in imposing it, not- Exchequer said that the right hon. Memwithstanding the objections to it, and not- ber for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladwithstanding the absence of any necessity stone) had argued without reason that the for imposing it beyond the repeal of half variation of rates in the schedules would the Malt Tax, they must be prepared at be a breach of faith with the public creno distant period for a repetition of attacks ditor. He (Mr. Goulburn) adhered to that upon this duty, which, if imposed in the opinion, and the reasons for it given by the shape proposed by the right hon. Chancel- latter right hon. Member; and, when the lor of the Exchequer, would at no very House should arrive at the period for the distant day lead to its repeal and to a discussion of the Income Tax, he thought further deficiency of revenue. The right he should establish beyond a doubt that hon. Gentleman had gone in detail into the there was a contract with the public cre

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tion, his gratitude would possibly be diminished. Then, it was said, there had been exceeding liberality to the clergy in making a reduction of duty on those who had less than 100%. a year. It was said that the clergyman had a precarious income-an income dependent on his life, uncertain in its duration-and that at present he paid the highest rate of duty. But it may be asked why, if his income were precarious, take 1007. for the limit? The man who had 150l. must have an income as precarious as the man who had an income of 1001. One could understand such an arrangement if it were made on the score of charity alone; but when it was made on the ground that the income was precarious, how could such a remission be taken as a principle of legislation? He had thus stated the views he was disposed to entertain with respect to the measures now before the Committee. He objected to the repeal of the Malt Tax,

ditor, confirmed by the uniform decisions it was equally in his power before the of all the Courts to which the question alteration to obtain even a greater reduchad been submitted, preventing the House of Commons from placing upon this species of property a higher rate of duty than was imposed upon other property. The right hon. Gentleman said, "We have made a division between precarious and certain property, and taxed them accordingly. He (Mr. Goulburn) would tell him what he had done. He had made the funded property of the country, which was thought to be the most secure, the most precarious property, for he had made it dependent on the will of a Minister. If he could by his own authority, upon the construction which he put upon the contract, imagine it lawful to impose onethird more duty upon funded property than upon any other, what might not some future Chancellor of the Exchequer less moderate than he effect? What were pence now might be shillings to-morrow, and what were shillings to-morrow might be pounds in subsequent years, if the country should be weak enough, or the Minister wicked at a time when a revenue was not in a conenough, to impose different rates upon dition to part with that amount. He obfunded and other income. When the jected to the Budget, because the whole question should come on, he thought he could show that, whatever irregularities there might have been, whatever injustice any might suppose to operate in carrying into effect the measure of 1842, the measure now proposed abounded in inequalities ten times worse, and would involve the collection of the tax in inextricable difficulty. With respect to the mode in which it was proposed to estimate the profit of farms, it would be remembered that in 1842 the profit was taken at half the rent, and the tenant had no right to a reduction, nor the Govenment to an increase of that charge; but since then we had given the tenant-farmer the right of coming to the Commissioners at the end of the year and saying, "My profit has not amounted to half my rent, and I am entitled to a reduction;" and the Commissioners, upon examination of which weighed on his mind more than him and his books, were to abate the sum anything relating to a change of the reckoned as his profit, not to one-third of Property and Income Tax, or the House the rent, but to one fifth or one sixth, or Duty, or the Malt Tax-taking into conany proportion to which he could show sideration those several circumstances, he that his profit had fallen. The proposal, should conclude by humbly imploring the with respect to him, then, was perfectly un- Committee to avoid measures which by necessary. It might go forth to the coun-impairing the public credit of the country, try that the Government were conferring benefit on the farmer, by estimating his income at so much less than it was estimated at before; but when he knew that

surplus was derived from an application of money not legitimately made-namely, from the application to annual income of the balances of the Exchequer; because there must be a recurrence of that system of deficiency which it had been the whole of his ambition to put an end to, and which of late years had been entirely avoided. It was on the ground of the ultimate effect on public credit that he could not but view with alarm the proposals which the Government had made. By their proposals they were debarring themselves from the legitimate advantages to which, in the present state of the country, they might fairly look. The Government were gradually weakening the public sense of good faith by spending in the year more than they acquired from the revenue of the year; and, taking into consideration those serious matters

damaged its best interests, and which, involving all interests, would in the end be as injurious to the agriculturist as it would be to the manufacturer.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped the Committee would remember the time of the year, and the day of the month. He trusted they would come to an agreement to conclude the debate to-morrow. It would, he was sure, be satisfactory to all present, if there were a general understanding to that effect.

LORD JOHN RUSSELL said, he did

VISCOUNT JOCELYN moved the ad- from the income tax, it was not true that journment of the debate. the property of that country did not contribute to it pretty largely. The Motion he was about to propose was for a return of all sums paid as income tax upon Irish property by persons residing in this country, and, also, of all sums deducted from the annuities and dividends paid by the Bank of Ireland to persons having property in those funds and not residing in Ireland. On the first occasion on which he made this Motion, the noble Duke who then represented the Government in that House, granted the Motion; but, knowing as he (the Earl of Wicklow) did that large sums were paid by proprietors in this counonly by them, but by a vast number of try who had estates in Ireland, and not and luxury of this country to a residence small proprietors who preferred the ease must be a considerable amount contributed in their own, and being confident there to the revenue in that way; it was not

not think it possible at the present moment, so many Members being absent, to come to an understanding of that nature. He for one, should be very happy if it were the disposition of the Committee to conclude the debate to-morrow night. There were, he understood, many hon. Members absent who wished to express their opinions. He thought, therefore, that the matter must be left to their discretion; but he concurred with the right hon. Gentleman in expressing the hope that the discussion might be brought to an end

to-morrow.

without surprise that he found the return

to be "nil." It was the same on the second occasion; and it appeared that the House resumed;-Committee reported reason was that no account was kept by progress.

the Board of Taxes of the amount paid by

House adjourned at a quarter before Irish as distinguished from other property. One o'clock.

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The difficulties which at that time stood in the way of collecting the information he required, were now, he believed, completely obviated, and he felt confident that if the noble Earl agreed to his Motion he should have a very different return. Whatever the amount derived from this source might be, it ought in justice and fairness to be attributed to tho taxation of Ireland. Ho proposed the Motion exactly upon the same grounds as he had done before. When the property and income tax was first proposed by Sir Robert Peel, Ireland was exempted, not on account of her distressed condition, but because there was no machinery fitted for the purpose; and as the tax was only proposed for three years, it seem

IRELAND AND THE INCOME TAX. The EARL of WICKLOW rose to move for returns respecting the payment of property and income tax by persons resident in this country in respect of property in Ireland. The noble Earl said that that was not the first or the second occasion he had made a similar Motion upon this subject; and he had done so for this reason. In the first place, they had periodical renewals of the income tax; and as regularly accu-ed not worth while to establish it. They sations were brought against the proprietors of Ireland, that they did not contribute their share of the revenue of the country. Upon every occasion on which the income tax had been renewed, complaints were made of this nature, both in and out of Parliament, and notices were constantly given in the other House for extending it to Ireland. He (the Earl of Wicklow) had, therefore, been always anxious on these occasions to let their Lordships and the country know that, although it might be true that Ireland was nominally exempt

were now, however, about to have the income tax renewed, not as a temporary measure, but as a measure which had all the appearance of permanency: a desire to substitute direct for indirect taxation now prevailed, and however objectionable such a system might be in a great commercial country like this, or, indeed, in any great country, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has evidently succumbed to it; and whatever might be the desire of the Government to exempt Ireland from the income tax, he believed they would not be able to succeed

in the attempt, because such an exemption would not be based on the principle of justice for whatever taxation was imposed on one portion of the Empire ought to be imposed on all. They were now about to introduce a tax upon the funded property of that country, and upon the recipients of public salaries there. It was perfectly right and just; and he could not see why the Lord Lieutenant, the Lord Chancellor, and the holders of places in Ireland, should be exempted, whilst in this country the annuitant with only 50l. a year, and the tradesman with only 100l. a year, were to be subject to the tax. Now he (the Earl of Wicklow) should wish, for his part, to see the enormous and unjust taxation which at present prevailed in Ireland under the name of the Consolidated Annuities Tax, altogether abolished. There would then be no difficulty whatever in establishing the income tax in Ireland on all descriptions of property, and raising the 400,000l. which Sir Robert Peel estimated as the revenue which would be derived from the stamps and spirit duties, and which, in fact, had raelised but 16,000l. The sum now assessed on Ireland for the consolidated annuities is 250,000l.: that would be probably the proportion of the 400,000l. which would fall upon the land; but at present the consolidated annuity tax is so distributed that the amount is larger just in proportion as the district is poor and unable to bear it; so that, in fact, where the largest sums are payable, there is not only no expectation of levying the tax, but, as he knew, a bill of indemnity was necessarily brought in, partly to exempt the poorer districts of the country from its payment. He was therefore convinced that, if it were shown to Parliament, by the abolition of the consolidated annuity tax, and the imposition of a property tax, an act of justice would be effected, and the revenue increased, it would readily accede to it.

He was anxious to see an equalised system of taxation, similar to that adopted in England, extended to the sister country; and if that were done in the manner he had taken the liberty of suggesting, he had no doubt the result would prove highly beneficial to the interests of that country, and at the same time materially tend to increase the revenue of the Empire at large, He thought this would be the best opportunity of effecting such an object, and that it would be satisfactory to this country and to Ireland. The noble Earl concluded by moving, for a

"Return of the Amount of Property Tax

paid by Persons residing in Great Britain on Sums drawn from Ireland, in the Two Years commencing April 1851 and April 1853: and also, "Return of all Sums charged on Dividends and Annuities at the Bank of Ireland payable to Persons not resident in Ireland, in the Years commencing April 1851 and April 1852.”

Ordered to be laid before the House. The EARL of DERBY: I can have no objection, on the part of Her Majesty's Government, to lay before your Lordships the papers which have been moved for by the noble Earl, if, indeed, the return will afford him the information which he seems to expect it will. I can only regret that the noble Earl did not give me the precise object he had in view in making this Motion, in order that I might have ascertained if the mode in which the papers are now made out was calculated to answer that object. My own impression is that the Income-tax papers remain precisely on the same footing as they did when the former returns he moved for were made, and that, consequently, he will not find any distinction between incomes derived from Irish property and those derived from colonial property, and the proceeds of the Income Tax from Irish property will still be returned as nil. But I only speak from a vague recollection of the Income-tax papers which have been presented to me for my signature. Not having received a shilling from my Irish property for four or five years— on the contrary, the balance being considerably on the other side-and finding myself obliged to make remittances of money to that country, I was compelled to return nil. There is no objection, however, to produce the returns, and I shall be glad to give the information which the noble Earl desires; but I must be excused if I decline entering into the policy of charging the Income Tax on Ireland, or into the financial propositions of the Government now before the other House of Parliament. There will be abundant time for the discussion of all the details arising out of the Income Tax when the measures which have been submitted to the other House of Parliament come before your Lordships in detail in the shape of a Bill. The noble Earl has correctly stated the principles which he conceives to be involved in the various measures that are now under the consideration of Parliament, and that have been brought forward by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He correctly states, that according to those measures, it being deemed expedient to diminish to a considerable extent the amount and pressure of indirect taxation, it follows as a necessary conse

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