and minute detail, but of the great and broad principle involved in the present deliberation-I think it is of great importance that the country should not long be in suspense as to the course of proceeding which Parliament is to adopt, and with regard also to the hands by whom the system now established is likely to be carried out; and I hope that very few days, or it may be hours, may decide that question, so far as the other House of Parlia

quence, whether it be desirable or not, that be, cannot be without important and ima considerably increased proportion of the mediate consequences upon the position of revenue of this country should be in future Government itself; but I am speaking in drawn from the sources of direct taxation; relation to the permanent interests of the and the noble Earl also interprets correctly country, with regard to which I hold the the desire entertained on the part of Her decision to which Parliament is about to Majesty's Government, that, as far as it come as a matter of the most vital importcan be practicable, that extension shall take ance. I earnestly hope that, as soon as place, avoiding as far as possible those practicable, Parliament will relieve the exemptions which are undoubtedly not country from the anxiety with which it is founded in strict justice, and which can now awaiting the decision to which the only rest upon the impossibility of collect- House of Commons may arrive upon that ing from a numerous portion of indigent important subject. For undoubtedly, withpersons, who are exempted not so much on out desiring to hurry or accelerate the prothe ground of strict justice as on the im-ceedings of the other House of Parliament, possibility of collecting the amounts which so as to preclude them from a due and full become due from them. Subject to that consideration, not, indeed, of each petty exception I quite agree with the noble Earl that it is desirable, in applying direct taxation, that the exemptions should be as few as possible, and that the area of taxation should be as general, as wide, and as equable as possible. And I confess, that whilst on the part of the Government we have thought that it would be inexpedient, and, looking at the distressed condition of the landed property in Ireland, that it would be inconvenient and impolitic, to subject that country to the payment of a tax from whichment is concerned. I regret that, in conit has hitherto been exempt-I concur with the noble Earl in thinking that the question is only a matter of time, and that if the Income Tax be established as a permanent source of revenue, it cannot be expected that so large a portion of the Empire as Ireland should be exempted for more than a temporary period from the operation of that tax. With regard to the exemption of the land of Ireland, there was a claim made out on its part for temporary exemption from the Income Tax; and consequently we have submitted to Parliament that Ireland should be so exempted, so far as relates to that particular description of property which has suffered most seriously from the circumstances of late years. That question, namely, the extension of direct taxation, and the extension of that system of direct taxation subject to as few exemptions as possible, is the subject which at this moment engages the anxious attention of the House of Commons, and that is a question which I trust will be solved in the course of the present week. My Lords, that question is one of deep and vital importance to the permanent interests of the country. I am not speaking of any personal consequences attaching to the Government, although I am quite sure that your Lordships will see that the decision of the House of Commons, whatever it may

sequence of these discussions, and the delay that has taken place-though I do not complain of that-it is necessary that your Lordships should have to meet day after day, with little or no business to transact, for the purpose of sitting here a few minutes, and then adjourning the House. I am certainly very anxious that, as soon as the decision of the House of Commons shall be pronounced, and the Resolutions now submitted to them are affirmed-if affirmed they are to be-your Lordships should be released from what I consider to a great extent your unnecessary attendance here. But whilst that question, and the other questions hinging upon it, still remain in abeyance and undecided, I should not think I was performing my duty to the Crown if I recommended the adjournment of this House for any lengthened period, to deprive the Crown of the possibility of securing the attendance of this and the other House of Parliament at a time when it might be necessary for the Crown to have recourse to their immediate advice and assistance. I again say there is no objection on the part of the Government to the production of the returns moved for by the noble Earl.

Motion agreed to.

Papers ordered to be laid before the House.

REVENUE AND TAXATION.

I class of men, whose judgment and opinion LORD MONTEAGLE moved for certain ought to have had weight with the Governreturns connected with the Revenue and ment, or been binding on Parliament ? Taxation, and said, that, although he did Half the malt tax was to be repealed-at not believe that they were now entering whose bidding? The measure had not for the first time on a course of peril, yet been demanded by petitions; it had not he thought they were persevering in a been forced on the Administration by an course of great danger to the substantial adverse majority; it was simply the iminterests of the country, and advancing politic and gratuitous act of the Governin that course more rapidly by the sub-ment itself. If so, the substitution of distitution of direct for indirect taxation in rect taxation in the odious form of the raising a considerable portion of the re- house and income tax, for the repealed venue of the country. The Ministers oppo- malt duty, should be dealt with not as a site, and his noble Friend the Postmaster necessity, but as the gratuitous act of the General in particular, would remember that Government, and he hoped the proposition this was not the first time he had raised would therefore be successfully resisted by his voice against the adoption of this sys- the representatives of the country. If tem when extended by his own friends in there were any proposition capable of the late Government. At the present mo- being reasoned to demonstration, not only ment there was a current running hard in on.principle but on experience, it was, that favour of the imposition of direct taxation: the present Government were sacrificing to this the noble Lords opposite were 2,500,0001. of revenue without any exgiving their sanction; and the question cuse or palliation whatever; the reduction with him was, whether that current were in the price of beer would be so small, that running in the right direction, and if the consumer would get no benefit whatit were likely to lead to safe conse- ever from the proposal, and the benefit quences in a country which was so largely would be felt only by the brewer and indebted that it was obliged to raise great capitalists. This was proved by the 28,000,000l. sterling a year to pay the effects of repealing the war malt tax and dividends due to the public creditor. He beer duties; and it was proved by the condid not mean to argue, where a revenue of clusive evidence given by Mr. Charles Bar52,0000007. had to be raised annually, clay before their Lordships' Committee on that in no instance should direct taxation the Burdens on Land. Why was this fatal be resorted to in aid of the revenue arising sacrifice made? That the friends of the from indirect taxation. In a time of crisis noble Lord on the other side might indeed an income might frequently be the ef- be able to go to the country constifectual and aggregate remedy, and when tuencies, and say that they had obtained the property and income tax was proposed the repeal of a part of the malt tax for by the late Sir Robert Peel in the year them; when, in truth, neither the barley1842, he felt there was a full justification grower nor the people of England would for the measure in the pressure of a great gain anything by the measure. At the public exigency. At a subsequent period, same time the Government proposed to too, its continuance had a strong motive, for double the house tax and to increase the it was reimposed for an important object, area of its assessment; and also to bring a which it had realised, to the great benefit lower amount of annual income within the of the country: without the income tax the operation of the Income Tax Bill. This he reform of the tariff could not have been thought a dangerous course, for it was achieved; but, in the meantime, the system substituting for an indirect tax, borne with of direct taxation had developed its diffi- facility and collected with ease and ecoculties and dangers. The Government had nomy, direct taxation of the most odious not been able to induce Parliament to character. If the noble Earl had been grant the income tax for more than one a personal enemy, he could not wish year, and at length resort was had to the him a greater evil than that of succeedmost dangerous of all expedients-one-ing in carrying the whole of his measures tenth part of the whole public revenue. through Parliament, and being represented The noble Earl had spoken of the necessity of resorting to direct taxation for the purpose of supplying the deficiency created by the repeal of indirect taxation. But had this reduction been called for by any large

in every taxpaying house as the author of the new property tax and the new house tax, and as the member of a Government that had wasted 2,500,000l. as an act of delusive concession to a class whom it

would be quite in course for the noble Lord | fecting as large a portion of the community to proceed by resolution, and by antici- as is capable of bearing it; and next, by a pation to condemn the whole course of large amount of taxation to be raised on policy pursued by the Government. I must those articles which enter into the most say I think that the more regular course, general consumption of the people, and on notwithstanding the opinion expressed by which alone you can raise a large amount the noble Lord, would have been to wait of taxation. Now, the principle commonly until a substantive proposition came before called Free Trade, upon which the country your Lordships' House; and it is not a has decided, I take to be this- that upon sufficient answer to say, that when a Tax those articles on which you have raised a Bill is brought into this House, there is no large amount of very heavy taxationopportunity of amending it. It is true that articles of general consumption by the mass when a Tax Bill is brought up into this of the people-the country will not now House-whether it be one for the repeal or tolerate a large amount of taxation to be imposition of a tax-there is nothing to levied. You have laid down the principle, prevent this House from examining the not as regards any one particular item, but whole merits of the propositions brought in regard to those articles which necessarily forward by the Government relative to the enter into the consumption of the people. financial affairs of the country, and from You have taken as your proposition that deciding whether you will take all the con- the food of the people must be made cheap. sequences of accepting or rejecting them. Be it so. But if you adopt the principle That, I conceive, is a more legitimate and that food and the necessaries of life are to ordinary mode of proceeding than that be made cheap, and are not to be subjected taken by the noble Lord, of moving for to the amount of taxation which is necesunopposed returns for the purpose of en- sary to raise the required amount of the tering upon the whole financial affairs of year's revenue, the alternative is plain and the country. I hope my noble Friend will obvious-you must have recourse to that not think that I am treating him with any other system of taxation which can be disrespect if I abstain from following him equally diffused over the masses. In coninto the discussion as to what he supposes sistency with the principles of free trade, to be the intention and the consequences I will defy the noble Lord to vindicate the of the financial policy of the Government. imposition on the articles of malt and teaI will not either enter into a discussion two great necessaries of life of the working upon the condemnation which the noble classes-of duties respectively amounting Lord has passed on the proposition to ex- to 100l. and 2001. per cent on the prime tend the system of direct taxation. I do cost. We are driven, therefore, by the not quarrel with the noble Lord for adhering adoption of the principle which has been to that opinion, nor will I enter into a dis- pressed upon us by the other side of the cussion as to how far it would be advisable House, and which the country has sancto proceed upon the principle of direct or tioned-we, acting frankly and honestly indirect taxation. The noble Lord himself upon that principle, have felt it our duty admits it to be a question of degree. He to take that course which, in principle, I does not deny that, to a certain extent, am sure, will not be condemned by the direct taxation must be resorted to, to noble Lord, of reducing the heavy amount make up a deficiency occasioned in the in- of taxation charged on the necessary articles direct taxation of the country; conse- of consumption. I will not enter into any quently, the only question between the discussion as to the probable effects of the noble Lord and the Government is, as to repeal of the Malt tax, though I entertain what extent the increase of direct taxation a is to be carried, and what proportion it is to bear in the whole taxation of the country. I must be permitted to say, I think that the question of direct taxation is immediately and necessarily involved in the course of policy the country has determined to sanction; and, without any reference to the comparative merits of either direct or indirect taxation, there are but two modes in which a large amount of revenue can be raised—namely, one of direct taxation, af

different opinion from that of the noble Lord upon that subject. But I think I recollect very high authorities, who are looked up to by noble Lords opposite, and constantly quoted by them, who have declared that after the final repeal of the Corn Laws it would be impossible, if not unjust, to maintain the existing amount of duty upon malt. Your Lordships have the very highest authority on such questions-namely, Sir Henry Parnell, who, upon signing the report of the Commission of

Excise Inquiry in 1832, laid it down as a of agitation and excitement raised at that maxim-"If you remove the tax upon time on the question of reform; but from foreign barley, at least one-half of the duty the time that question ceased, the strength upon malt must be taken off as a necessary of that Government palpably and visibly consequence." I think also that Sir James declined; and, in order to maintain itself, Graham intimated his opinion strongly in it was undoubtedly compelled to yield in regard to the repeal of the malt duties and many things to the demands of those of the corn duties, that you could not with its ultra supporters who had supported it any justice repeal the one without also for the purpose of obtaining reform, but repealing the other. Now we did think, who certainly were desirous of pushing the that in conformity with that principle, and Government further than some of its Memacting upon the views of financial policy bers were disposed to go. I do not admit on which Parliament has entered, and which that Lord Grey's Administration, during the country has sanctioned, that it was just, the latter period of its existence, was right, and expedient-or, if you like it strong. Its weakness was occasioned by better, wise, just, and beneficial to reduce, the under-currents of its quasi supporters. to a very considerable extent, the amount But the noble Lord has omitted to recollect of duties on those two great articles of that there was not only then in existence consumption-namely, malt and tea. But a house tax, but also a window tax; and the noble Lord says we are imposing a during the administration of the late house tax and also a property tax-that is Government, it became a question whether to say, we are continuing a property tax preference was to be given to the repeal of in the most objectionable possible form. the window tax or to a house tax. It was Now, in regard to the continuance of a given to the repeal of the window tax upon property tax, I have nothing to say, be- sanitary considerations; and at the time cause I believe that as long as you persevere of its repeal, the late Chancellor of the in the present system, the continuance of Exchequer was desirous of carrying through such a tax is not a matter of choice but Parliament a house tax, which, in point of of necessity. The question then arises amount, would have been fully equivalent whether we are really continuing it in an to the window tax, and would have exoppressive form. Now, so far from that, we ceeded by about 200,000l. the house tax did think that if the Committee of the which we now propose. If, my Lords, House of Commons which sat last year, there is to be a house tax, I confess I am and which went into great details in regard at a loss to understand on what principle to the income tax, had laid down any one of justice you can stop short at houses of proposition more than another it was this the value of 201, a year, leaving a vast that, although it was impossible accurately majority of houses free from that which to measure the particular circumstances of should touch every one, and yet leaving each individual case, in order to frame an those householders in the possession of all income tax according to the principles of the privileges of the elective franchiseabstract justice, yet there was one broad that franchise which, according to the and palpable distinction to be drawn be- opinion of noble Lords opposite, and of the tween permanent and temporary incomes. liberal party in the House of Commons, And, therefore, when the noble Lord says should be co-extensive and conterminous we are imposing this tax in a manner most with taxation. But these measures, which objectionable to the middle classes, I beg may possibly never come under your Lordhim to observe, that for the first time, for ships' consideration, are now under the the relief of those middle classes, we are consideration of the other House of Parliadrawing this distinction between precarious ment; and when they do come before this and fixed incomes; and, without increasing House I shall be prepared to vindicate the the amount paid by the one, we do afford course which Her Majesty's Government to the other material relief by the reduction have taken, and to defend each separate of the amount of the burden at present laid measure from any attack made upon it by on them. The noble Lord talks of the noble Lords opposite. There is one point, strong Government of Lord Grey having however, to which the noble Baron alluded been obliged to recede from a proposition upon which I wish to make one observation which they had made in regard to the I mean his remarks upon what he called house tax. It is true that Lord Grey's the maintenance of the public credit. My Government was at the beginning a very Lords, if I thought that there was anything strong one, but it was strong by the amount in these measures to shake the public