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credit--if I saw in them any danger that the apprehensions of my noble Friend, the good faith of the country could in the they have never been below 100. I venslightest degree be shaken, or its means ture to assume this as a fair indicationof meeting its obligations be any way making due allowance for all the circumaffected—my noble Friend may depend stances which may tend to kcep down the upon it that he would not more warmly interest for money, and which may conse, oppose them than would myself and my quently affect the funds, and taken in con. Colleagues in this and the other House of nexion with, to say the least, the absence Parliament. But, my Lords, I see no of any hostile opinion on the part of the symptoms of any apprehension for the great commercial classes-no apprehension credit of the country. At no period of is felt that there will be a failure of the time were the funds of this country in a public credit in consequence of the meahigher, or more prosperous, or steady sures of Her Majesty's Government; and condition than they are at the present I venture also to express my conviction moment; and therefore my noble Friend, that the funds would be much more likely aware of the importance of this fact, to fall from the apprehension of the conseis compelled to have recourse to some quences arising from the settlement of the excuse, and he says that if the funds present state of things, and of the disso. are high they ought not to be, and lution of the present Government, than that they would have been much higher from the carrying of those measures which if we had not thrown the country into we hope (although my noble Friend says a state of alarm by the measures it is the worst hope which our worst enemy which he supposes (I know not on what would utter) to see carried into effect. I ground) Her Majesty's Government have do not allude to the minor details, but to in contemplation. My noble Friend re- the substance of those propositions which peated the stale joke of Sydney Smith, in my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the vindication of his view of declining wealth Exchequer has submitted to the other -namely, that the “ Three per Cents House of Parliament, and which in due were the greatest fools in the country.” time will come before your Lordships for I differ from my noble Friend. The great your decision. monied interest is tolerably alive to its own LORD MONTEAGLE said a few words, interest, and I still subscribe to the old-in explanation; he was understood to say fashioned notion that the state of the funds that Government ought to impose those is a tolerable barometer of the confidence, taxes only which could be conveniently or want of confidence, reposed in a Go- collected. vernment by that interest. I venture to The Earl of DERBY said, he must state, therefore, and I do so with great protest against the doctrine which he suprespect, but at the same time with great posed to be peculiar to an ex-Chancellor satisfaction, that neither in the state of of the Exchequer, that a Government need the funds, nor in any expression of feeling not mind the justice of a tax so long as on the part of the monetary and commer- they could procure money. He had never cial interest of the country, can I gather said that free trade neces

essarily contemthat the slightest apprehension has been plated the absence of all imposts; but he caused by the measures of Her Majesty's had contended that free trade did contempresent Government. But I should like plate the absence of disproportionate imto know how it is, if as my noble Friend port duties, more especially duties upon has alleged, the funds have kept up only articles of general consumption. He did in consequence of being relieved from the not know his noble Friend's views of proalarm which was felt as to the measures portion or disproportion, but he (the Earl which the Government was expected to of Derby) thought that 200 or 250 por bring forward-how it is that the funds cent on articles of consumption fell within did not fall under the apprehension of these the definition of disproportionate taxation. hyper-dangerous measures? When the Nor did he think that those classes upon present Government came into office the whom that duty fell could be termed a funds were at 96. They have ever since privileged class, because they complained kept gradually creeping up, and in a few of such disproportionate taxation. months, notwithstanding the alleged dan- On Question, agreed to. gerous views of the Government, and the alarm they had spread, the funds touched LOANS TO RATEPAYERS IN COUNTIES. 100; and from that time to this, despite The EARL of POWIS moved for a Return of the Amount lent in each year since I vance money that was to be paid by tem1830 by the Public Works Loan Commis- porary instalments. That inconvenience sioners to England, Scotland, and Ireland. applied not only to works of this descripReturn of the several Loans now outstand- tion, but also to works of a different deing in each Kingdom-1, on Security of scription, the expenses of which were to County Rates; 2, Railroads; 3, Roads, be repaid in a similar manner. The insuCanals, Docks, and Harbours; 4, other rance offices, to a great extent, had proWorks and Buildings; and of the Years in ceeded on that principle; but they had which each of such Loans will be paid off, reason to believe that the insurance offices together with the Rate of Interest now had gone to as great an extent as they paid on each Loan. The noble Lord also could in lending on this description of seasked whether it was the intention of Her curity, and therefore Her Majesty's GoMajesty's Ministers to provide for the Rate- vernment still had under their considerapayers in Counties any facilities for bor- tion the mode in which they might, to a rowing money for Bridges, Shire II alls, certain extent, intervene between the borGaols, Asylums, &c., corresponding to rower and the lender, without making fresh those which they have hitherto enjoyed advances from the public treasury. He

inder the Public Works Loan Commis- did not know whether it ould be practic sion?

cable to bring the plan to bear, but he The Earl of DERBY could have no ob- hoped it might be done. jection to grant the papers moved for by Ordered to be laid before the llousehis noble Friend; but he had found, since

“ Returns of the Names of the Public Works he gave the notice yesterday, that there Loan Commissioners ; of the Expenses of the was a return of the 8th July, 1851, to the Board; of the Amounts placed at the Disposal House of Commons, which would give up of the Commissioners, and Amount remaining to that period the whole of the information unissued; of the Amounts advanced to Borrowers, which his noble Friend required, and which and contracted to be advanced, distinguishing

such as are on the Security of County Rates ; of went back as far as 1824. The terms of the Total of Principal and Interest received and the Motion might be altered so as to con- returned into the Exchequer; and of the Total tinue that return up to the present time. Amount of Principal remaining unpaid ; and a With regard to the question, he presumed general Statement of the Transactions of the that his noble Friend' adverted to the de- Commissioners from their Appointment, June

1817." clared intention of the Government in one

House adjourned to Thursday next. part of the Budget to suspend the continuous issue of an annual sum to the Loan Commission. It was undoubtedly the opi. nion of the Government that, in the present

HOUSE OF COMMONS, state of the money market, it was not de

Tuesday, December 14, 1852. sirable to continue a system which had been introduced, in the first instance, under Minutes.] Public Bill.-1° Parish Constables. very different circumstances, for the purpose of meeting great public distress, and CAPE OF GOOD HOPE-THE KAFIR a great deficiency of capital in private

WAR, hands. It had, therefore, been thought MR. ADDERLEY said, he wished to better that, while the repayments should ask the right hon. Secretary for the Colocontinually come in and be applied to the nies whether he could inform the House Ways and Means, the balance should not | of the contents of the despatches received be continued to be used, and, consequently, per the Queen of the South, from the Cape an addition would be made to the annual of Good Hope, some hours previously? Ways and Means of the country. His He wished also to know if the right hon. noble Friend spoke of the inconvenience Gentleman could state what were the prothe country would sustain by the discon- spects of the Kafir war; whether there tinuance of Government assistance, and put was any reason to suppose it bad extended it on two grounds. One was that the to the north-east frontier; whether the county rates were not a good security; but Colonists were leaving to join the republic le (the Earl of Derby) must protest against beyond the Kei; and whether any methe doctrine, that the Government were to morials had been received from the inhabiinvest public money in a security that was tants of Cape Town, complaining of the not approved of. The other ground was, postponement of the Constitution for that the reluctance of private lenders to ad- Colony?


SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, the ready; and when he had added those rehon. Gentleman had put a series of ques- ceived by the last arrival, they should be tions founded on the arrival of the Queen laid before the House without delay. of the South only a few hours previously, Sir DE LACY EVANS said, he also the despatches of which had been only so wished to ask a question. The territory short a tiine in his hands that he had not called British Kafraria had been hitherto had the opportunity of ascertaining all their treated as British territory, and he now contents. Nevertheless, he thought he wished to know whether the right hon.' should be able to give a satisfactory answer Gentleman would give them, along with to these questions. He was sorry to say, as the correspondence that had been promised, regarded the first, that he would be hardly the instructions he had sent out as to the justified in stating to the House that the character which the territory in question Kafir war was at an end; but he was fully would bear at the conclusion of the war? justified in stating that the stronghold of SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, the thc enemy—the Waterkloof-was entirely correspondence on the subject of the future clear of Kafirs, and in the hands of General course of the Government with respect to Cathcart, whose expression was that he the boundary of British Kafraria, at the “ hoped it was now clear of an enemy for conclusion of the war, was not one of the

In the Amatolas district, the re- papers moved for by the noble Lord the bellious chiefs—Sandili, Macomo, and their Member for the City of London. The subfollowers- were still sheltered; but the ject involved in that question was very troops were in active pursuit of them, extensive, and by no means of an easy naindeed, they had nearly been arrested by ture, for it referred not only to the eastern the gallantry and bravery of our officers; boundary, but also to the northern boundary and he was glad to say that he believed no of the Colony. He was, however, in cordanger existed as regarded them. With respondence with General Cathcart on the respect to the second question, he had no subject of the eastern boundary–he had reason whatever to suppose that the war sent a despatch by the last mail, but till he had extended to the north-east frontier, or had received an answer he could not give a indeed that it had spread in any other reply to the question of the hon. and gallant direction; and he had no knowledge of the Member. other fact adverted to in the third question MR. HINDLEY said, he would beg to of the hon. Gentleman. With regard to ask the right hon. Secretary for the Colomemorials from Cape Town on the subject nies, if the statements which had appearof the postponement of the Constitution, he ed in the Cape newspapers were truehad only received one, besides the despatch namely, that Kafirs taken in the clearing of the Government of the Colony. He had, of the Waterkloof were immediately hung; however, received a despatch from Governor and if so, whether this was justified by the Darling on the subject, in which it was laws of war? stated that no excitement whatever pre- Sir JOHN PAKINGTON said, he had vailed in the Colony, and that the general no official knowledge of the fact alluded to feeling was quite satisfactory.

in the first part of the question. No menMR. VERNON SMITH said, the right tion was made in any of the despatches he hon. Gentleman had some time ago, in had received of executions. As regarded answer to a question from the noble Lord the second part of the question-with rethe Member for the City of London (Lord spect to the rules of war-he apprehended J. Russell), promised to lay the papers on that the rule of war was, that when an the table in reference to the Constitution enemy showed no quarter, to meet him in at the Cape, and he wished now to know a similar spirit; but, on the other hand, he when they would be ready, for he observed had no hesitation in saying to execute a they had been read in the Assembly at the prisoner was not consistent with the laws Cape, and it was hard they had not obtained of war. It should, however, be always them here.

borne in mind that a great portion of the Sir JOIN PAKINGTON said, that Kafirs and Hottentots engaged in this war the papers moved for by the noble Lord were British subjects, and as such were the Member for the City of London, on the guilty of high treason. He certainly had subject of the Constitution of the Cape, seen in a newspaper, and he had also heard had not been withLield by any fault of the it through a private channel, that in clearColonial Office. They had been only asked ingathe Waterkloof some persons were hung for a few days since--they were now nearly -under what circumstances he could not say; but he would not be doing justice to extent are brought forward it is extremely the extreme gallantry and bravery of both desirable that a sufficient interval should officers and soldiers employed in that task, elapse to enable the country fully to conif he believed for a moment that they had, sider them, and that there should be ample by any unnecessary act of cruelty to the discussion in this House; but I cannot but enemy, tarnished the high reputation which remember the moment at which we are they had so nobly acquired.

assembled, and the absolute necessity that MR. HINDLEY: Would the right hon. there is for the House adjourning for a Gentleman make inquiry into the truth of considerable period. I assure the House the statement?

that nothing is more foreign to my nature, SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, he or more repugnant to the wishes of the should have added that he had seen the Government, than in any way to precipitate general orders issued by General Cathcart a conclusion upon any great constitutional to the troops prior to the expedition across point on which the will of the House has the Kei, and that one of the most distinct not been perfectly expressed. The hon. orders among them was to avoid any un- and gallant Gentleman referred to my statenecessary loss of life. He (Sir J. Paking- ment; but he must recollect that that stateton) had, however, no objection to make ment included a great variety of subjects. inquiry into the statement; but he should I do think it would be only fair to the also observe at the same time that he had Government if before the holidays we could the fullest confidence in the humanity and take one vote. I do not want in any way discretion of General Cathcart, as well as to narrow the issue. I wish, if I possibly in the bravery and gallantry of the troops. can, to put it on a principle. I do not ask


Gentleman on either side of the House, WAYS AND MEANS TIIE FINANCIAL by voting on this occasion, to come to any

STATEMENT ADJOURNED DEBATE direct vote in favour of the repeal of the (THIRD NIGHT).

Tea Duties, or the Hop Duties, or the Malt Order for Committee read.

Duty, or of any detail of the Income Tax, Debate resumed.

or even of the mere details of the vote on Sir DE LACY EVANS said, a desire which we are to come to an issue to-night. had been expressed on the previous night All I ask the House is, that it will at least that the discussion should, if possible, be affirm what we consider a vital principle, concluded that evening. It had, however, and that it will allow us to bring forward only lasted as yet two nights, and it must measures of financial reform (not merely be remembered that the right hon. Gen- with reference to the particular plans we tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, propose) which depend upon the country. with all his skill as an orator, had been being agreed to bear a certain quantity of compelled to occupy nearly the whole of direct taxation. I do not ask any Gentleone night in the development of his plan. man to be in the least pledged by the vote He (Sir De L. Evans) thought, then, it he may come to to-night to any details of was rather too much to expect that the thia Resolution. I only ask you to affirm whole of the representatives of the country that the area of direct taxation should be should be called upon to decide in two extended. evenings upon this important subject. House in Committee. Again, only one metropolitan Member had Question again proposedyet had an opportunity of addressing the " That, towards raising the Supply granted to Committee

upon it. Another reason was, Her Majesty, from and after the 5th day of April, that time ought to be given for the opinion 1853, the Duties granted and made payable by of the country to be expressed with regard Dwelling llouses in Great Britain, according to to it; and on all these grounds he hoped the annual value thereof, shall cease and deterthe Committee would not be pressed to a mine, and in lieu thereof there shall be granted decision to-night.

and made payable upon all such Dwelling Houses The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE- the following Duties (that is to say)” :QUER: I am sure, Sir, there is no Mem- VisCounT JOCELYN said, he regretted ber in this House who is less inclined to that he should stand for a moment in the throw

any difficulties in the way of Gentle-way of hon. Gentlemen expressing their men expressing their opinions than myself, opinions, whose opinions were of far higher and I am sure I have never exhibited any value than his; but at the same time he desire to restrict our debates. I am per- would be sorry to give a vote upon a ques. fectly aware that when measures of this tion differing from those with whom he had

hitherto had the pleasure to act-espe-cussed now or at a future period. Neither cially differing from the right hon. Gentle could he wonder at the position which had man the Member for the University of Ox- been assumed by the Government themford (Mr. Gladstone), for whose opinion on selves. He could not wonder that they all matters of general policy he had the were anxious to ascertain the position in highest regard and respect--without stat- which they stood before the House and the ing his reasons for doing so. He had come country. Nothing was so objectionable as to the consideration of the proposition of a Government on sufferance. A GovernHer Majesty's Government in a different ment on sufferance was injurious to the spirit from that which appeared to have men who formed the Administration, and actuated those around him. He was one it was objectionable for the sake of the of those who had been returned to Parlia- best interests of the country. They had ment to maintain intact the great measures had experience of a Government of sufferof commercial freedom on which the fiscal ance—they recollected the last three years policy of the country had been regulated, of the Administration of the noble Lord and which he believed had tended to im- (Lord John Russell), composed of men of prove the condition of all classes ; and great ability, and presided over by the when he looked at the measures of Her noble Lord himself, whose integrity and Majesty's Government, it was with no ability were unimpeachable; but the House small degree of gratification he found that would recollect that for two years he was there was no attempt to reverse the policy impeded in bringing forward any mcasures which they had adopted—a policy which of public importance simply by the want the Government had acquiesced in-a po- of power to carry them out. Ile thought, licy which Parliament had sanctioned. therefore, that the Government were right When he looked at the measures of the in endeavouring to ascertain their position; Government, he found in them a frank ad- they might not have chosen the best, but mission of the justice of that policy; and they had not certainly chosen the least he trusted the House and the count dangerous question on which to test it, and would yet find in those Ministers the ablest they were not open to the charge of an supporters of a wise extension of that po- immoderate desire to retain office. To his licy. He was not prepared to question the mind there were two principles involved in prudence of the course which had been this Budget: the first was a readjustment marked out by the right hon. the Chancel of the direct taxation of the country; and lor of the Exchequer, in reference to the the second was an extension of the policy order in which the items of the Budget which they all supported—a reduction of were to be taken. If, indeed, he believed the duties on articles of general consumpthat the income tax was henceforth to be tion. With regard to the first principleconsidered as a temporary source of reve- when he looked at the fact that there were nue—if he believed that any party in this two direct taxes that were imposed upon House were prepared to propose measures the country, and that a comparatively small for its reduction, tending to ultimate abo- portion of the community were subjected lition—if he believed that the finances of to them, he thought it was matter for grave the country would admit of such a step, consideration how far they should allow a then he might agree with the right hon. system to continue which was obnoxious to Gentleman the Member for the University every principle of sound policy, and how of Oxford, that it was their first duty to they could go on for any length of time look to the position of that tax, and to with a system which excluded a portion of place it on a proper footing. But believing the community deeply interested in the as he did, that the income tax must, at all welfare, tranquillity, land good government events for the present, be viewed as a per- of the country from bearing a fair propormanent source of taxation-believing it to tionate share in its burdens. With regard be necessary to carry out the financial ar- to the second principle-an extension in rangements proposed-looking to the con- the reduction of duties on articles of gen. duct of different Governments with respect eral consumption—that appeared to him to to this tax-seeing that whenever it was be a question which depended entirely on on the point of expiring, arguments were the financial condition of the country. He found for its reimposition-believing it was would never be a party to shifting taxation not an unpopular tax if fairly adjusted-he from one class to another, for the purpose could not consider that it was of much im- of relieving or benefiting any particular portance whether the income tax were dis- interest. Such a principle was contrary

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