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House. In conclusion, I will only beg night, the Earl of Derby and his Colyour Lordships not to consider, because I leagues thought it their duty to tender have not now touched upon them, that the resignation of their offices to Her Ma. there are not many other things in the jesty, and Her Majesty has been most graspeech of the noble Earl which may require ciously pleased to accept the same. It on a future occasion explanation, and a has reached me that Lord Aberdeen has no less positive contradiction, than that undertaken the office of forming a new given by me to that particular accusation Administration, and therefore it only reto which I have called the attention of mains for me to say that we hold our your Lordships.

present offices only until our successors The Earl of DERBY: The statement are appointed. I hope the House will which I made to your Lordships was de- not think it presumptuous on my part if, rived from information which I thought, under these circumstances, I venture to and still think, was not of a character to offer them my grateful thanks for the indeceive me, and was one which I thought dulgent, and I may even say the generous it my duty to make. I will not now enter manner in which on both sides I have into any controversy on the subject. I will been supported in attempting to conduct merely state in explanation that I did not the business of this House. If, Sir, in say that the Motion had been made for the maintaining a too unequal struggle, any purpose of preventing us from bringing our word has escaped my lips (which I hope measures before the country ; but I did has never been the case except in the way say that from the first commencement of of retort) which has hurt the feelings of the Session there was an obvious concert any Gentleman in this House, I deeply rebetween different parties, for the purpose gret it. And I hope that the impression of putting the Government in a minority, on their part will be as transient as the and that the Motion was made, and concert sense of provocation was on my own. The entered into on the subject, before we had kind opinion of the Members of this House, the opportunity of explaining our measures whatever may be their political opinions, to the country. I did not say that the and wherever I may sit, will always be to specific object of making the Motion at me a most precious possession, one which I that time was for the specific purpose of shall always covet and most highly apprepreventing Her Majesty's Government ciate. I beg, Sir, to move, that this House from explaining their measures. I am not on its rising, do adjourn till Thursday aware that in anything I have said I have next. in the slightest degree deviated from the Lord JOHN RUSSELL: I rise, Sir, courtesy due to the noble Earl now absent; for the purpose, in the first place, of sayand if I did not comply with his request in ing, I entirely concur in the Motion of the moving the adjournment of the House until right hon. Gentleman, and in the next Monday next, I have stated the reason place to say that I feel quite certain that why I have not so complied, and I also if, at any time in the course of our debates, stated that if the noble Earl should not be those flying words which will occur at such ready by Thursday next, I should of course times have carried a barb with them, it is be prepared to move the further adjourn to be attributed entirely to the circumment of the House from Thursday till stances in which the House has been Monday; with, of course, the distinct placed. For my part I can only admire understanding that no business of any the ability and gallantry with which the importance should be brought forward right hon. Gentleman has conducted himtill then.

self on the part of the Government, and in House adjourned to Thursday next. behalf of the cause which he has under

taken, in the struggle in which he has been for some time been engaged. It is,

perhaps, impossible to hope that those halHOUSE OF COMMONS,

cyon days will ever arrive in which, in the

course of debate, an unpremeditated reMonday, December 20, 1852.

mark will not occasionally occur which

will give rise to some unpleasant feeling; RESIGNATION OF THE MINISTRY.

but if ever it should occur in future, feelThe CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-ings of that kind must be done away, if QUER: Mr. Speaker, after the vote at the person in the situation of the right which the House arrived on Thursday hon. Gentleman imitates his example, and


disclaims the intention with the same gise for them; but so little conscious was frankness which he has displayed on the I that I had done so, that I remember, on present occasion,

the night when the right hon. Gentleman SIR JAMES GRAHAM: Sir, with re- the Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke, spect to the future I am altogether unin- asking the opinion of a right hon. Gentleformed, but with respect to the past, after man who sat near me as to what I had what has fallen from the right hon. Gen- said. He assured me he did not think I tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I had used any expression to justify the cannot refrain from saying one word. It attack which was then made upon me. I would be impossible for me not to avow I think it fair to say this in my own defence; was somewhat pained by an expression though, at the same time, I am ready to whieh fell from the right hon. Gentleman admit that, feeling strongly as I did on the on Thursday night. If I had thought that question, I may in the heat of debate have the right hon. Gentleman, by premedita- been betrayed into a warmth of expression tion, intended to wound me, my feelings which it was far beyond my intention to would be far different, and it would be my use. Having said thus much in my own duty to express them in a different man- defence, I beg to add, that I accept the

But I am not conscious that I have expressions which have just fallen from ever in the course of the debate said any- the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor thing with the intentional purpose to wound of the Exchequer in the same frank spirit the feelings of the right hon. Gentleman, in which he has uttered them. He must, and I could not believe that, without pro- I am sure, feel with me that after the vocation, he gave expression to words in- terms of reciprocal kindness in which we tended to wound me. I was confident, have always communicated with each other therefore, that the expression that had heretofore, it would ill become either of us pained me was without premeditation, and to indulge in personalities. I will only what the right hon. Gentleman has just say, further, respecting any expression of said to-night has confirmed that impres- mine that may have given pain to the sion. There is no Member of this House right hon. Gentleman, that there is no so deeply attached to freedom of debate as expression of courtesy towards him that I

In the course of debates here, I am not ready and willing to make. I am have certainly, myself, used unguarded most anxious that our debates should be expressions to others, and should, conse- conducted with the utmost courtesy and quently, be the last person to feel resent-good feeling, and I am sorry that anything ment after receiving an explanation. At should have arisen to give a different chathe same time I cordially join in what has racter to our proceedings. fallen from my noble Friend the Member COLONEL SIBTHORP: Sir, I have lis. for the City of London, I have never tened attentively to what has fallen from failed to admire the talents of the right the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the the Exchequer; and also to what fell from Exchequer, and I also must say, under the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) and great difficulties, he has conducted the the two right hon. Gentlemen on the opcause of the Government in the last ten posite side in reply to his observations. months in this House with signal ability. Sir, I have heard that you may knock a I shall not for one moment recollect the man down and then .step forward with expression to which I have thought it my courtesy to give him a plaster. I neither duty to refer, and I hope my conduct in quite subscribe to the knocking down, nor this House will at all times insure some have I any faith in the sincerity of those portion of its respect.

who offer the plaster. I have heard from Sir CHARLES WOOD: Some ex- the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchepressions, Sir, which fell from me the quer that the noble Lord at the head of the other night having been misunderstood, I Government has resigned, and I have should think myself wanting in that proper learned, subsequently to my coming into feeling which has marked the conduct of this House, that there has been a meeting the right hon. Gentleman opposite if I did on the subject in Downing-street. I was not say one word on this occasion, I can not there, but my absence arose from no only say that, if I had been conscious of disrespect, for I declare, upon my honour, having used any expressions beyond the that I did not know that any such meeting fair limits of debate, I should not have was taking place. Sir, I do not hold any waited till now in order to retract or apolo- place, and I never will. I have lost no

I am.

thing, and have certainly nothing to grieve I his mind it involved matter for deep and for; but I feel, nevertheless, for my coun- serious consideration. Difficulties might try. I can enter into the feelings of the appear to him, perhaps, which were not noble Lord the Earl of Derby, as an up- apparent to others; but he confessed he right and an honourable man; and it is was fearful that, unless the new Ministry possible that, under similar circumstances, should adopt a wise and prudent course, I might even have done the same myself; the character of that House and the sysbut I do not hesitate the less to say, that tem of Parliamentary government, which I deeply regret that that noble Earl should had been so much eulogised in Europe, have given way to, in my opinion, a band would be in danger of suffering. He to a phalanx of conspirators. People talk begged to say that he had a great opinion of dog and cat, but that phalanx will be of the prudence, caution, and discretion of something worse. The cat and the dog the Earl of Aberdeen, who, he understood, will sometimes lie down together; but I had been sent for by Her Majesty; and, venture to predict that there are feelings therefore, he was not at present alluding in the coalition opposite that will show in particular to him; but lie begged to say themselves in the course of time

generally, that in the present state of Eu“Naturam expellas furcâ, tamen usque recurrit." rope, in the present state of this country,

and after the experiment they had had There will come a day when there will be during the last ten months of an attempt as much dissension, as much jealousy, and to govern against the wishes of a majority as much undermining, as I believe has of the people, as had been shown by the been practised in the attempt—the suc- recent vote of the people's representatives, cessful attempt, I regret to say—to over- the future required great consideration, throw a Government who have endeavoured, and that in the formation of a new Governthough before untried, to discharge their ment care should be taken to have it duty, and who have been actuated but by formed on the broadest possible basis, so one feeling, namely, to promote the wel as to secure the support of the community fare of all mankind. It is true that I did at large, and at the same time to carry not approve of the house tax, or the in- out that progressive improvement in every come tax-[Laughter]—I don't envy your branch of the State which was demanded feelings--but I felt it the duty one man by public opinion; otherwise they would owes to another to step forward and en- probably soon be put to the trouble of andeavour to rescue the Government from other change. It was on these grounds one of the most powerful conspiracies ever that he had ventured humbly to state his threatened. These are my honest feel- opinion, and he begged to say that it was ings, and I trust I shall never prove a his alone, for not a soul had he communirecreant to the duty I owe to my Sove- cated with on the subject; but he had no reign and my country. I think there is hesitation in saying that, unless Her Mano one that deserves better of the com. jesty's Government, whoever they might munity than the right hon. Gentleman the be, should look more than had yet been Chancellor of the Exchequer; and so long done to principles and opinions compatible as I am permitted to hold a seat in this with the extension of the institutions of House I shall remember what has passed, the country, so as to make them more effiand learn to be on my guard against the cient and useful for the purposes for which man-traps and spring.guns of hon. Gentle they were established, the consequences to men opposite

the country would be exceedingly painful. MR. HUME said, he had no apology to The Government must be prepared to carry make to any one, but he had an act of on the law reforms which had been so well duty to perform towards Her Majesty's begun; to continue and complete the syslate Government which he had great plea- tem of free trade; and, above all, they sure in discharging, and that was to tender must be prepared to purify and reform the thom his thanks for the facilities they had system of representation, with respect to always given him for obtaining information which, if there was onc argument stronger upon all subjects on which he had asked than another, it was the 130 petitions it. He had met with nothing but courtesy which had been presented complaining of from all the different departments of Go- bribery and corruption during the late elecvernment, and for that he felt most grate- tions, and which were enough to throw ful to them. With respect to the Motion discredit upon any representative system. for adjournment, he bogged to say that to Unless, therefore, those who succeeded to office were prepared to weigh well and quer had ever held out more hopeful proconsider how they could best carry out the mises of redressing grievances than the wishes of the country in these respects, right hon. Gentleman. As compliments their time would be wasted, and they would seemed to be the order of the day, if the all have reason to regret the result ere right hon. Gentleman would accept from long. The noble Lord lately at the head so humble a person as himself his feeble of the Government was reported to have tribute of admiration for the manner in said that one of his objects in taking office which he had conducted, not only the was to stop the progress of democracy. business of his office, but the business of He (Mr. Hume) could hardly believe that the Government generally in that House, the noble Lord' intended to use the phrase he was ready and willing to pay it. The according to the interpretation that bad right hon. Gentleman had entered office been put upon it. The fact was that the with a high reputation; in his (Mr. constitution of that House was a demo- Cayley's) humble opinion, he would go cratic constitution. The noble Lord the out of it with a reputation, not only unMember for the City of London (Lord John tarnished, but increased in a large measure Russell) had justly declared that in his in the estimation of the country. His beopinion the mass of the people had their lief was that the country would still look rights and privileges just as much as the forward to the day when those measures Crown and the Peerage had their rights which the right hon. Gentleman had and privileges; and all he (Mr. Hume) pounded would be realised, and sure he asked was, that those who succeeded to was that they would not be satisfied until the Government should take care that the most of them were carried. democracy had their just rights, and he Motion agreed to. asked them to do this as the best means of preventing the evils which were alleged to

IRON ORDNANCE. arise from democracy-because in general Sir GEORGE PECHELL moved for a he believed it would be found that those Return of the unappropriated Iron Ordnance evils had arisen from withholding from the in store at Woolwich and the outports for people their just rights. Now was the the land and sea service; distinguishing the time, when the people were comparatively serviceable, unserviceable, and obsolete ; comfortable and happy, to make those and Return showing the number of Iron changes which were necessary to place our Ordnance condemned as unserviceable in institutions on a satisfactory footing to each year since 1848, and how disposed give an example to the whole world, and of, and, if sold, the price paid for the to carry on harmoniously the government same. of the country. He hoped to live to see COLONEL DUNNE said, there had been those refornis realised, and he was confi- a sale of the old Ordnance every quarter dent that all attempts to prevent them to the extent that people would buy them. would fail.

He considered that it was inconvenient MR. CAYLEY said, that in a great under present circumstances to give this portion of the opinions which had just Return. fallen from the hon. Member for Montrose Sir GEORGE PECHELL said, it was he cordially agreed. He cordially agreed convenient enough to come down to the with him as to the manner in which the House the other night for 8,0001. for new Members of the late Government had act-Ordnance, which was granted, and he did ed towards all those who had occasion to not see why it was inconvenient to give come in contact with them on matters of this Return. They got that 8,0001., business. He thought the hon. Gentleman though he (Sir G. Pechell) stated at the might have gone further, and said that in time that there were more than 14,000 his recollection no set of men had ever ad- serviceable guns in the different arsenals. ministered the Government with more prac- COLONEL DUNNE said, that he would tical advantage to the country than the rather leave the granting of the Return right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of to the discretion of his successor, who the Exchequer and his colleagues, who probably might be the hou. and gallant were now vacating their seats on the Minis- Member. terial benches. And he might even have Mr. HUME said, he must express his gone still further, as the great redresser of surprise that any opposition was made to grievances, and said that no man who had this Return. This pretension of secrecy filled the office of Chancellor of the Exclie- was a perfect mockery. The French Government knew perfectly well how many with the duty of forming an Administration guns we had in our arsenals, and how (the Earl of Aberdeen) requesting me to many were fit for service; and if we move the adjournment of the House till were to send a person over to France, he next Monday, by which time he gives me could get the same information concerning reason to believe that his arrangements theirs.

will be completed, I beg leave to move that SIR FREDERICK SMITH said, he this House, at its rising, adjourn till Monhoped the Return would be given. He day next. hoped, also, it would not be imagined House adjourned to Monday next. that because they had a vast number of guns of small calibre, they were not in

HOUSE OF COMMONS, want of guns of a more moderate construction and larger calibre.

Thursday, December 23, 1852. LORD DUDLEY STUART said, it was remarked a few days ago that the Mem- APPOINTMENT IN THE DUBLIN POST bers of the Government were well received

OFFICE. at Guildhall, and the next day the Sheriffs MR. J. BALL said, he wished to put a of London appeared at the table with a pe- question to the hon. Secretary for the tition against the Government measures; Treasury. He had been informed that and they had the hon. Member for Mon- upon a vacancy arising lately in the office trose (Mr. Hume) praising Ministers a few of President of the Money Order Departminutes ago for their readiness to give ment in Dublin, a gentleman already in the information, and now blaming them for service was highly recommended by the refusing information.

local authorities as a proper person to fill GENERAL ANSON said, it would be it, and that there were thirty-four other quite proper that the Return should be gentlemen who might, in the ordinary given: he apprehended there was no wish course of promotion, have aspired to fill for concealment, but, under the circum- the office; but that the appointment had stances, notice had better be given for the nevertheless been given to another gentlenext meeting of the House.

man who had not previously been in the MR. WALPOLE had no doubt the hon. public service at all, and who, he believed, and gallant Member would get his Return was chiefly known to the public in Ireland if he would move for it another day. It for the extreme violence of his denunciawas not of an immediately pressing na- tions of the Poor Law Board. He wished ture.

to know, therefore, whether in filling up SIR GEORGE PECHELL said, he was the vacant office of President of the Money only asking for a continuation of a former Order Department in the Post Office in Return, and he would divide the House if Dublin the usual practice of that departthe Motion were resisted.

ment had been violated by the appointSIR ROBERT H. INGLIS apprehended ment to the vacancy of a person not prethat the numbers present would not enable viously engaged in the public service? the hon. and gallant Member to gain his MR. G. A. HAMILTON said, that by object by a division.

the appointment in question no rule had Notice taken, that Forty Members were been infringed, nor had the usual practice not present; House counted; and Forty been violated. The gentleman whose death Members not being present,

occasioned the vacancy was the first PreThe House was adjourned at half after sident of the Money Order Department in Five o'clock till Thursday.

Dublin; obviously, therefore, there was no practice or precedent as regarded that

office in the Dublin Post Office. HOUSE OF LORDS, similar office existed in the London Post

Office, and it appeared that in 1841 the Thursday, December 23, 1852.

Earl of Lichfield appointed a gentleman MINUTES.) Public Bill.—3* Stamp Duties on not previously in the Post Office, nor, he Patents for Inventions,

believed, in any public service; and on the

same office again becoming vacant, in MINISTERIAL ARRANGEMENTS.

1851, the Marquess of Clanricarde apThe EARL of DERBY: My Lords, in pointed a gentleman of high respectability consequence of a communication I have and intelligence, not previously connected this morning received from the noble Earl with the Post Office, or with any other dewho has been intrusted by Her Majesty Ipartment of the public service.

But a

With re

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