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769 The National System of {Nov. 30, 1852} Education (Ireland), &c. 770 tice, and would have the further advantage Sir JOHN PAKINGTON said, that of rendering that justice attainable in the the Bill was intended more particularly to Superior Courts. The Bill would abolish meet the special case of Jamaica, which those technical forms of action which had colony, by the unfortunate financial cirhitherto formed such great obstructions to cumstances into which it had fallen, had the ready enforcement of the just rights been unable to keep faith with these Coolies. of suitors, and it would, in fact, throw It was considered that a Bill of this nature open the higher tribunals in Ireland to the would be the most convenient method of great mass of those engaged in the pro- supplying the deficiency, and he hoped secution of legal claims. He hoped that that it would be allowed to pass through no feeling of jealousy would prevail, be the House without unnecessary delay. cause the Irish Courts had, in the first in

Bill read 20. stance, been made subject to those improvements, and he felt persuaded that The House adjourned at half after Nine every Gentleman in that House would use o'clock. his best endeavours to give to the measure the utmost completeness and efficiency.

HOUSE OF LORDS, MR. BUTT said, he perceived that in the Bill, as it had been printed, the Acts which the measure was to repeal were

Tuesday, November 30, 1852. alleged to be enumerated in a Schedule; Minutes.] Took the Oaths,-Several Lords. but that Schedule had somehow or other Public Bills.—2a Oaths in Chancery, &c. been omitted. He wished to know whether that omission would be supplied be- THE NATIONAL SYSTEM OF EDUCATION fore the House was asked to go into Committee on the Bill ?

(IRELAND)—PETITION. Mr. WHITESIDE replied in the afiir

The EARL of CLARENDON said, he mative.

had a petition to present from certain nonBill read 2°, and committed for Monday land—in the north as well as in the south,

subscribing Presbyterian Ministers in Ircnext.

and in the urban as well as the agricultural INCUMBERED ESTATES COURT

districts, praying that the fundamental

principle of the National System of Educa(IRELAND). MR. MACARTNEY moved for certain late. They stated that, in their opinion,

tion in Ireland may be maintained invioreturns connected with the operation of the Incumbered Estates Court in Ire- the confidence of their body in the Board,

any alteratiou of that system would destroy land. LORD NAAS said, he had no objection the schools, and add fuel to the bitterness of

would impair the usefulness and vigour of to the production of any information which could show how that Court had proceeded, | (the Earl of Derby) was, perhaps, aware that

His noble Friend

parties in the country. but he thought that some of the details on in consequence of a speech which his noble which the hon. Gentleman sought to be Friend made last year, and also of a speech enlightened were of a person:1 and invidious character, and he could not, there at his election for the University of Dublin,

made by the Attorney General for Ireland fore, assent to the Motion in the shape in

some apprehension had arisen that a change which it stood.

in that system of education was meditated Motion withdrawn.

by Her Majesty's Government. He (the WEST INDIA COLONIES, &c., LOANS ACT share in that apprehension; and in answer

Earl of Clarendon) confessed he did not AMENDMENT BILL.

to numerous inquiries made to him on the Order for Second Reading read. subject, he had not hesitated to state his

Mr. F. PEEL said, he much doubted conviction that no danger was likely to acthe propriety of anticipating the future crue to the system with with which the resources of a colony like Jamaica. The noble Earl's name was so honourably conaim of the Bill was quite obvious, and it nected, and of which he was the author; applied to the removal of the Coolies as and, he believed, that if the noble Earl injurious, not beneficial, to the island. should think it liis duty to institute an in. VOL. CXXIII. (THIRD SERIES.]

2 C


vestigation into the subject, the result COMMERCIAL LEGISLATION-FREE would be to show that the system was

TRADE. faithfully administered that it worked The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE rose well-that it was not only the best, but to give notice, that on a future day he the only system which was adapted to the would move the adoption of Resolutions wants and feelings of the people of Ireland similar to those which had been lately and that no change could be effected adopted, not by an unanimous vote, but without great difficulty and danger to the by a large majority of the House of Comcause of education in that country. That mons. He had expected that Resolutions opinion had, to a certain extent, been con- similar to those adopted in the other House firmed by the statement lately made by the would have been proposed to their Lord. noble Lord the Chief Secretary for Ireland ships' House; and be purposely abstained (Lord Naas); and he (the Earl of Claren- yesterday from giving the notice he was don) was bound to say that the rev. gen- now about to give. He had hoped, altleman who had forwarded the petition to though it was but a feeble hope after what him for presentation stated that the speech passed a week ago, that Her Majesty's of the noble Lord had greatly mitigated Ministers might have thought it necessary the apprehensions of himself and other to communicate those Resolutions to their persons in Ireland, though they did not Lordships' House, to renew them there, or think it necessary on that account to with to take some steps to move Resolutions of draw their petition. He need hardly say a similar nature on the subject. But as it that would be a great satisfaction to them, did not appear now that any step had been and to the friends and supporters of educa- taken on his (the Marquess of Clanricarde's) tion in Ireland generally, to learn from the side of the House, he thought it was due noble Earl at the head of the Government to the House as well as to the great questhat no change in the national system of tion to which the Resolutions of which he education in Ireland was contemplated by had spoken related, that the matter should Her Majesty's Government.

be brought under their Lordships' delibeThe Earl of DERBY: My Lords, rate opinion, and that their Lordships' during the recess, my attention and that judgment thereupon should be regularly, of my Colleagues in the Government, and and he hoped permanently, recorded. Theremore especially my noble Friend the Lord fore, upon some day that might be most conLieutenant of Ireland, has been directed venient to the Ilouse—he cared not what most anxiously to the question of national day it might be, for in that respect hewasin education in Ireland. My noble Friend the hands of the House--he should bring the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland has felt it the subject under the consideration of their his duty to devote very great consideration Lordships. If it was satisfactory to the to this question ; and with every desire to House, and if it equally suited the conremove, as far as possible, the feelings or' venience of the noble Lord opposite (the the prejudices of those who are opposed to Earl of Derby), he should name Monthat system and who desire certain alter- day; if not, any other day that might be ations in it, neither I por my noble Friend more agreeable. at the head of the Government in Ireland The Earl of DERBY: I certainly think can see our way to the introduction of any –considering the noble Marquess asked change which would have that effect with me a short time since whether it was the out disturbing or materially altering the intention of Her Majesty's Government to present system of education in that coun- propose any measure of importance, or to try. All I can say is, that I consider it ask the opinion of the House on any would be a very great evil if we were se- portant measure before Christmas, and riously to disturb the existing system; and that in consequence of the answer 1 gave the Government, not seeing their way to to the House, which was in the negative, make any alteration with the view to which a very large number of noble Lords had I have alluded, have no intention of bring. left town-I certainly think, if the noble ing forward any measure to effect what Marquess intends to bring forward this one party had in view, seeing that could question, and to submit a Resolution to not be effected without incurring evils your Lordships' consideration, sufficient which they would greatly deplore. time should be given to those noble

Petition read, and ordered to lie on the Lords who may desire to take part in table.

that discussion to return to town, which

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I think can hardly be before Monday, and the feelings which have been excited week. It will be convenient for me to on this subject, it would not be better to enter into a discussion on Monday next; conciliate rather than to aggravate those and if the noble Marquess thinks it feelings by the consideration of questions is necessary to raise a discussion, I can- bearing on the past; whether such a course not at all object to his bringing his Reso- would not better suit his views and those of lution forward on Monday next. But at other noble Lords acting with him; and the same time I must say I am quite whether it would not be more conducive to ready, if the House thinks fit, to adopt the good feeling of this House that such a such a Resolution as shall faithfully ex- Resolution should be adopted, rather than press the opinion of this House and the that an Amendment should be moved of a country with regard to the course of future character which would lead to a long and policy; and I am not prepared to call on acrimonious discussion. those noble Lords who, adhering to the The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE present policy and determined fairly and said, he was sure the noble Earl would candidly to carry it out, entertain still the not expect him at once to adopt the sugopinion which they previously entertained gestion he had made, and which rather with regard to the policy of the original took him by surprise. He did not think measure— I am not prepared, I say, to call that any opposition, or rather he should upon them to sanction a Resolution which say hesitation, would have been shown by shall express opinions with regard to the the noble Earl to adopt the words which past not in accordance with their own he (the Marquess of Clanricarde) certainly views. But if the noble Marquess is satis- thought were frankly, fairly, and volunfied with a Resolution-I am not now tarily adopted by the noble Earl's colspeaking of any particular form of words leagues in another place. He saw great -which fairly adopts the recently estab-inconvenience in a Resolution being adoptlished policy for the future, I am quite ed by this House different from that of prepared to concur with him as to the form the other House. He would not, however, of words which should be introduced; and enter on the subject now, nor would he that they shall be as binding as the most express any decided opinion on the subcordial advocate of free trade can desire. ject; but this he would say, with reference I am quite prepared to concur with the to something that fell from the noble Earl, noble Marquess and other poble Lords on that it should not be the fault of him (the the other side of the House in passing a Marquess of Clanricarde) if any wrangResolution which should be in terms some-lings, unpleasant altercations, or discusthing like these : - “ That this House sions arose in that House in discussing thankfully acknowledges the general pros- that question. He wished to bring forperity of the country; and, recognising the ward the question wholly and solely on evils of frequent changes in the financial large principles, and in such a manner as system of the country, is prepared to ac- he thought was due to this House and to cept and adhere to the commercial system so important a matter. recently established, with a view to its The Earl of DERBY: With regard to being fully maintained and carried into a Resolution in the other House of Parliaeffect.” I do not desire at this moment ment, the House will be aware that the to bind myself or noble Lords to any par- Resolution which was adopted and sancticular words; but such a Resolution, I tioned by a very large majority, was not a think, would entirely satisfy those who only Resolution proposed by either side of the desire to have a security for the future; House, but one which was accepted as a and I confess I think it would be more compromise between extreme opinions, and satisfactory to your Lordships' House, and which it was hoped would lead to a satisto the country generally, that such a Reso factory adjustment. But as the noble lution should be come to by your Lord. Marquess wishes to take into consideration ships, rather than have discussions, wrang- the suggestion 1 have thrown out, perhaps lings, and altercations with reference to he will abstain from placing any notice on particular terms or words, which I am the books at present; and perhaps on bound to say I do not think reflect any Thursday he will say what course be invery great credit on the proceedings of the tends to pursue. If he thinks it fit to Legislature. I submit to the considera- persevere with his Motion, it will then be tion of the noble Marquess, whether, look- my duty to offer an Amendment; and he ing to the future policy of the country, will then perhaps not have any objection

to give some further notice-say from

CORK CITY ELECTION. Thursday to that day week. But if on The Earl of DONOUGHMORE preThursday he will take the course which I sented a petition from inhabitants and think desirable, then it will not be neces- owners of property within the Parliamensary to summon noble Lords who are now tary boundary of the city of Cork, comabsent, and who will find it inconvenient plaining of the manner in which the officers to attend on Monday.

charged with the preservation of the peace The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE: in that city discharged their duty at the last On Thursday, then, I will give the notice. election, and praying for relief. He had

intended to accompany the presentation of CLERGY RESERVES IN CANADA. the petition with some remarks of his Lord WODEHOUSE asked the noble own, but as there was a petition in reEarl the Under Secretary for the Colonies, ference to this election under consideration whether there would be any objection to in the other House of Parliament, he should lay on the table of the House certain cor

refrain from doing so. He might, how respondence relating to the Clergy Reever, observe that for two days, during the

election, the city of Cork was in the posserves in Canada ?

session of a lawless mob. The Earl of DESART said, the cor

The Earl of BANDON said, he merely respondence was not yet ripe for discussion: but he confessed he had not clearly petition presented by the noble Earl

, and

rose for the purpose of supporting the heard what the noble Lord asked, owing to state that he could bear testimony to to the conversation going on in the House the disgraceful conduct represented in the on the termination of the previous ques.

petition. tion. The correspondence that had taken place on the subject was very scanty, but that the petitioners prayed, amongst other

LORD MONTEAGLE said, he observed such as it was, there was no objection to its production. He could assure the noble things, that the House would devise some its production. He could assure the noble mode of protecting life and property during Lord that Her Majesty's Government were elections in Ireland. Without, however, deeply impressed with the importance of this subject. It was now fully under the questioning the allegations contained in consideration of his right hon. Friend at disadvantageous in every way, if their

the petition, he submitted that it would be the head of the Colonial Office, and he trusted that ere long some final settlement Lordships' House were to raise discussions

with would be arrived at, which would be con

respect to matters of that description, sonant with the just rights of all parties tial consideration of the election petition

as they might thereby prejudice the imparconcerned.

before the tribunals appointed to try their


The EARL of DERBY: I do not think The LORD CHANCELLOR said, he


noble Friend behind me is open to any rose simply to move the Second Reading censure on the part of the House, or of of a Bill which he had had the honour to my noble Friend who has just sat down, introduce to the House on a previous occa- for having in the performance of his duty, sion. The purpose of it was to give a presented a petition, couched in most redifferent name to Masters Extraordinary in spectful terms, to this House, asking for Chancery, and to enable all solicitors with the intervention of Parliament for the rein ten miles of London to act in the same moval of that which, if it did exist at the way as Masters Extraordinary formerly last election, was undoubtedly a great evil; acted. There was one provision in the and stating facts connected with the loBill for the purpose of saving expense in cality from which the petition proceeded taking evidence under deeds and wills. He which were within the knowledge of the wished to take that opportunity to correct petitioners themselves, and on which they a misapprehension which had gone abroad, founded their prayer for some remedial that it was the intention of the Act to

measures. On the other hand, I concur take away from the Masters Extraordinary with my noble Friend that a lengthened the benefits which they previously had. discussion, or an attempt to form a judgNo such intention appeared in the Bill; ment with regard to the merits of a partithe object of it merely was to give them a cular case, ought not to precede an inquiry, name consonant with their occupation. still less an attempt of the Legislature to Bill read 2*, and committed.

pronounce an opinion upon a question of this kind, when an inquiry will, in all pro- the existing circumstances and state of sobability, take place before the proper legal ciety in Scotland. He was, however, fully and constitutional tribunal in another sensible of the difficulties to be dealt with in place. I entirely concur with my noble determining how they should be altered, and Friend that such a course would be both whether any other tests should be substiunwise and impolitic. If I correctly un- tuted. He trusted that if any change or derstand my noble Friend behind me, he modification of the law took place, it would does not propose to institute any inquiry come from the hands of the Government. Ho at the present moment. This case of had reason to believe that the attention of Cork as detailed by the petitioners, I fear, the Government of the late Sir Robert Peel is by no means a single one; and I am had been called to the important subject, afraid that in the course of the approach and that if they had continued much longer ing Session of Parliament very many peti- in office, they would have laid a measure tions of a similar character will be pre- before Parliament with a view to the amendsented by different parties in Ireland, and ment of the law. The present law officers will undergo investigation, on oath, before of the Crown in Scotland were gentlemen those tribunals which are appointed for the of the highest abilities and attainments, especial purpose of inquiry into disputed and as competent as any of their predeceselections. I think that before those Com- sors to deal with the question. He thought mittees it is very possible that not only it of importance that if any measure was local but much general information of very proposed, it should proceed from those who considerable interest and importance may could not be supposed to be hostile to the be produced; and I am far from saying Establislied Church. It was on that ground that if the result should be that not only he urged the Government to take the subin one case but in several—from any quar-ject into their serious consideration. He ter or by any body of men—the free exer- hoped the noble Earl would not be deterred cise of the right of election has been tam- from entering upon it by finding it was not pered or interfered with in Ireland-I a am in his power to devise any measure which far from saying that the result of such a would meet the opinions and views of all mass of evidence from different quarters parties. From bis own knowledge of the may not justify and render necessary the state of parties, and of the ecclesiastical intervention of the Legislature for the pur- divisions in Scotland, he was convinced that pose of preventing such an infringement if the noble Earl refrained from introducing of the law, and such an interference with a measure until he could frame one which the liberty of the subject. But, for the should be acceptable to all parties, he had present, while I cannot concur with the better abandon the attempt at once, as noble Lord opposite (Lord Monteagle) that altogether hopeless. He had no wish to my noble Friend behind me is open to any speak with the slightest disrespect of the censure for having presented the petition, opinions and feelings of those who belonged I entirely agree in the propriety of our to the Established Church in Scotland, of peither, in this nor any other similar case, which he was a member. It was but naprejudging questions which must be sub-tural that the ecclesiastical courts which mitted to competent tribunals in the other were placed in the peculiar situation of House of Parliament.

trustees of the Church, should take a Petition read, and ordered to lie on the somewhat limited and technical view of the table.

question, and stand on her legal and con

stitutional rights, however at variance UNIVERSITY TESTS IN SCOTLAND. with the altered circumstances of society.

The Duke of ARGYLL said, he wished Though, as he before said, he was anxious to put a question to the noble Earl at the that a measure should originate with those head of the Government, of very pressing who, in a general point of view, were importance, with reference to academic known to be favourable to the interests of tests in Scotland. It was not his inten. the Established Church, he did not desire tion to raise any discussion on the subject, that an attempt should be made to concias the facts were sufficiently known to the liate all opinions, or even that the meanoble Earl, and would probably before long sure should receive the approbation and come in detail under the consideration of approval of the ecclesiastical courts. Havtheir Lordships. All who were acquainted ing made these observations, he would ask, with the subject must be impressed with a whether the Government intended, during sense of the incongruity of those tests with the present Session, to propose any altera

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