769 The National System of {Nov. 30, 1852} Education (Ireland), &c. 770 SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, that the Bill was intended more particularly to meet the special case of Jamaica, which colony, by the unfortunate financial circumstances into which it had fallen, had been unable to keep faith with these Coolies. It was considered that a Bill of this nature would be the most convenient method of supplying the deficiency, and he hoped that it would be allowed to pass through the House without unnecessary delay. Bill read 2°. The House adjourned at half after Nine o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Tuesday, November 30, 1852. MINUTES.] Took the Oaths.-Several Lords. PUBLIC BILLS.-2a Oaths in Chancery, &c. MR. BUTT said, he perceived that in the Bill, as it had been printed, the Acts which the measure was to repeal were alleged to be enumerated in a Schedule; but that Schedule had somehow or other been omitted. He wished to know whether that omission would be supplied be- THE NATIONAL SYSTEM OF EDUCATION fore the House was asked to go into Committee on the Bill? MR. WHITESIDE replied in the affirmative. (IRELAND)-PETITION. The EARL of CLARENDON said, he had a petition to present from certain nonBill read 2o, and committed for Monday land-in the north as well as in the south, subscribing Presbyterian Ministers in Irc next. and in the urban as well as the agricultural districts, praying that the fundamental principle of the National System of Education in Ireland may be maintained inviolate. They stated that, in their opinion, the confidence of their body in the Board, any alteration of that system would destroy would impair the usefulness and vigour of the schools, and add fuel to the bitterness of parties in the country. His noble Friend (the Earl of Derby) was, perhaps, aware that in consequence of a speech which his noble Friend made last year, and also of a speech made by the Attorney General for Ireland at his election for the University of Dublin, some apprehension had arisen that a change in that system of education was meditated by Her Majesty's Government. He (the Earl of Clarendon) confessed he did not. WEST INDIA COLONIES, &c., LOANS ACT share in that apprehension; and in answer AMENDMENT BILL. Order for Second Reading read. MR. F. PEEL said, he much doubted the propriety of anticipating the future resources of a colony like Jamaica. The aim of the Bill was quite obvious, and it applied to the removal of the Coolies as injurious, not beneficial, to the island. VOL. CXXIII. [THIRD SERIES.] to numerous inquiries made to him on the subject, he had not hesitated to state his conviction that no danger was likely to accrue to the system with with which the noble Earl's name was so honourably connected, and of which he was the author; and, he believed, that if the noble Earl should think it his duty to institute an in 2 C COMMERCIAL LEGISLATION-FREE vestigation into the subject, the result would be to show that the system was faithfully administered—that it worked well that it was not only the best, but the only system which was adapted to the wants and feelings of the people of Ireland -and that no change could be effected without great difficulty and danger to the cause of education in that country. That opinion had, to a certain extent, been confirmed by the statement lately made by the noble Lord the Chief Secretary for Ireland (Lord Naas); and he (the Earl of Clarendon) was bound to say that the rev. gentleman who had forwarded the petition to him for presentation stated that the speech of the noble Lord had greatly mitigated the apprehensions of himself and other persons in Ireland, though they did not think it necessary on that account to withdraw their petition. He need hardly say that would be a great satisfaction to them, and to the friends and supporters of education in Ireland generally, to learn from the noble Earl at the head of the Government that no change in the national system of education in Ireland was contemplated by Her Majesty's Government. The EARL of DERBY: My Lords, during the recess, my attention and that of my Colleagues in the Government, and more especially my noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, has been directed most anxiously to the question of national education in Ireland. My noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland has felt it his duty to devote very great consideration to this question; and with every desire to remove, as far as possible, the feelings or the prejudices of those who are opposed to that system and who desire certain alterations in it, neither I nor my noble Friend at the head of the Government in Ireland can see our way to the introduction of any change which would have that effect with out disturbing or materially altering the present system of education in that country. All I can say is, that I consider it would be a very great evil if we were seriously to disturb the existing system; and the Government, not seeing their way to make any alteration with the view to which I have alluded, have no intention of bringing forward any measure to effect what one party had in view, seeing that could not be effected without incurring evils which they would greatly deplore. Petition read, and ordered to lie on the table. TRADE. The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE rose to give notice, that on a future day he would move the adoption of Resolutions similar to those which had been lately adopted, not by an unanimous vote, but by a large majority of the House of Commons. He had expected that Resolutions similar to those adopted in the other House would have been proposed to their Lordships' House; and he purposely abstained yesterday from giving the notice he was now about to give. He had hoped, although it was but a feeble hope after what passed a week ago, that Her Majesty's Ministers might have thought it necessary to communicate those Resolutions to their Lordships' House, to renew them there, or to take some steps to move Resolutions of a similar nature on the subject. But as it did not appear now that any step had been taken on his (the Marquess of Clanricarde's) side of the House, he thought it was due to the House as well as to the great question to which the Resolutions of which he had spoken related, that the matter should be brought under their Lordships' deliberate opinion, and that their Lordships' judgment thereupon should be regularly, and he hoped permanently, recorded. Therefore, upon some day that might be most convenient to the House-he cared not what day it might be, for in that respect hewasin the hands of the House-he should bring the subject under the consideration of their Lordships. If it was satisfactory to the House, and if it equally suited the convenience of the noble Lord opposite (the Earl of Derby), he should name Monday; if not, any other day that might be more agreeable. The EARL of DERBY: I certainly think considering the noble Marquess asked me a short time since whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to propose any measure of importance, or to ask the opinion of the House on any important measure before Christmas, and that in consequence of the answer I gave to the House, which was in the negative, a very large number of noble Lords had left town-I certainly think, if the noble Marquess intends to bring forward this question, and to submit a Resolution to your Lordships' consideration, sufficient time should be given to those noble Lords who may desire to take part in that discussion to return to town, which I think can hardly be before Monday and the feelings which have been excited week. It will be convenient for me to on this subject, it would not be better to enter into a discussion on Monday next; conciliate rather than to aggravate those and if the noble Marquess thinks it feelings by the consideration of questions is necessary to raise a discussion, I can- bearing on the past; whether such a course not at all object to his bringing his Reso- would not better suit his views and those of lution forward on Monday next. But at other noble Lords acting with him; and the same time I must say I am quite whether it would not be more conducive to ready, if the House thinks fit, to adopt the good feeling of this House that such a such a Resolution as shall faithfully ex- Resolution should be adopted, rather than press the opinion of this House and the that an Amendment should be moved of a country with regard to the course of future character which would lead to a long and policy; and I am not prepared to call on acrimonious discussion. those noble Lords who, adhering to the The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE present policy and determined fairly and said, he was sure the noble Earl would candidly to carry it out, entertain still the not expect him at once to adopt the sugopinion which they previously entertained gestion he had made, and which rather with regard to the policy of the original took him by surprise. He did not think measure-I am not prepared, I say, to call that any opposition, or rather he should upon them to sanction a Resolution which say hesitation, would have been shown by shall express opinions with regard to the the noble Earl to adopt the words which past not in accordance with their own he (the Marquess of Clanricarde) certainly views. But if the noble Marquess is satis- thought were frankly, fairly, and volunfied with a Resolution-I am not now tarily adopted by the noble Earl's colspeaking of any particular form of words leagues in another place. He saw great -which fairly adopts the recently estab-inconvenience in a Resolution being adoptlished policy for the future, I am quite ed by this House different from that of prepared to concur with him as to the form the other House. He would not, however, of words which should be introduced; and enter on the subject now, nor would he that they shall be as binding as the most express any decided opinion on the subcordial advocate of free trade can desire.ject; but this he would say, with reference I am quite prepared to concur with the to something that fell from the noble Earl, noble Marquess and other noble Lords on that it should not be the fault of him (the the other side of the House in passing a Marquess of Clanricarde) if any wrangResolution which should be in terms some- lings, unpleasant altercations, or discusthing like these: "That this House sions arose in that House in discussing thankfully acknowledges the general pros- that question. He wished to bring forperity of the country; and, recognising the ward the question wholly and solely on evils of frequent changes in the financial large principles, and in such a manner as system of the country, is prepared to ac- he thought was due to this House and to cept and adhere to the commercial system so important a matter. recently established, with a view to its being fully maintained and carried into effect." I do not desire at this moment to bind myself or noble Lords to any particular words; but such a Resolution, I think, would entirely satisfy those who only desire to have a security for the future; and I confess I think it would be more satisfactory to your Lordships' House, and to the country generally, that such a Resolution should be come to by your Lordships, rather than have discussions, wranglings, and altercations with reference to particular terms or words, which I am bound to say I do not think reflect any very great credit on the proceedings of the Legislature. I submit to the consideration of the noble Marquess, whether, looking to the future policy of the country, The EARL of DERBY: With regard to a Resolution in the other House of Parliament, the House will be aware that the Resolution which was adopted and sanctioned by a very large majority, was not a Resolution proposed by either side of the House, but one which was accepted as a compromise between extreme opinions, and which it was hoped would lead to a satisfactory adjustment. But as the noble Marquess wishes to take into consideration the suggestion I have thrown out, perhaps he will abstain from placing any notice on the books at present; and perhaps on Thursday he will say what course he intends to pursue. If he thinks it fit to persevere with his Motion, it will then be my duty to offer an Amendment; and he will then perhaps not have any objection to give some further notice-say from Thursday to that day week. But if on Thursday he will take the course which I think desirable, then it will not be necessary to summon noble Lords who are now absent, and who will find it inconvenient to attend on Monday. The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE: On Thursday, then, I will give the notice. CLERGY RESERVES IN CANADA. CORK CITY ELECTION. The EARL of DONOUGHMORE presented a petition from inhabitants and owners of property within the Parliamentary boundary of the city of Cork, complaining of the manner in which the officers charged with the preservation of the peace in that city discharged their duty at the last election, and praying for relief. He had intended to accompany the presentation of the petition with some remarks of his own, but as there was a petition in reference to this election under consideration in the other House of Parliament, he should refrain from doing so. He might, how LORD WODEHOUSE asked the noble Earl the Under Secretary for the Colonies, whether there would be any objection to lay on the table of the House certain correspondence relating to the Clergy Re-ever, observe that for two days, during the election, the city of Cork was in the possession of a lawless mob. serves in Canada? The EARL of DESART said, the correspondence was not yet ripe for discussion: but he confessed he had not clearly heard what the noble Lord asked, owing to the conversation going on in the House on the termination of the previous question. The correspondence that had taken place on the subject was very scanty, but such as it was, there was no objection to its production. He could assure the noble Lord that Her Majesty's Government were deeply impressed with the importance of this subject. It was now fully under the consideration of his right hon. Friend at the head of the Colonial Office, and he trusted that ere long some final settlement would be arrived at, which would be consonant with the just rights of all parties concerned. OATHS IN CHANCERY BILL. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, he rose simply to move the Second Reading of a Bill which he had had the honour to introduce to the House on a previous occasion. The purpose of it was to give a different name to Masters Extraordinary in Chancery, and to enable all solicitors with in ten miles of London to act in the same way as Masters Extraordinary formerly acted. There was one provision in the Bill for the purpose of saving expense in taking evidence under deeds and wills. He wished to take that opportunity to correct a misapprehension which had gone abroad, that it was the intention of the Act to take away from the Masters Extraordinary the benefits which they previously had. No such intention appeared in the Bill; the object of it merely was to give them a name consonant with their occupation. Bill read 2a, and committed. The EARL of BANDON said, he merely rose for the purpose of supporting the petition presented by the noble Earl, and to state that he could bear testimony to the disgraceful conduct represented in the petition. LORD MONTEAGLE said, he observed that the petitioners prayed, amongst other things, that the House would devise some elections in Ireland. Without, however, mode of protecting life and property during questioning the allegations contained in disadvantageous in every way, if their the petition, he submitted that it would be Lordships' House were to raise discussions with respect to matters of that description, tial consideration of the election petition as they might thereby prejudice the imparbefore the tribunals appointed to try their merits. my The EARL of DERBY: I do not think noble Friend behind me is open to any censure on the part of the House, or of my noble Friend who has just sat down, for having in the performance of his duty, presented a petition, couched in most respectful terms, to this House, asking for the intervention of Parliament for the removal of that which, if it did exist at the last election, was undoubtedly a great evil; and stating facts connected with the locality from which the petition proceeded which were within the knowledge of the petitioners themselves, and on which they founded their prayer for some remedial measures. On the other hand, I concur with my noble Friend that a lengthened discussion, or an attempt to form a judgment with regard to the merits of a parti cular case, ought not to precede an inquiry, still less an attempt of the Legislature to pronounce an opinion upon a question of it of importance that if any measure was proposed, it should proceed from those who could not be supposed to be hostile to the Established Church. It was on that ground he urged the Government to take the sub this kind, when an inquiry will, in all pro- | the existing circumstances and state of sobability, take place before the proper legal ciety in Scotland. He was, however, fully and constitutional tribunal in another sensible of the difficulties to be dealt with in place. I entirely concur with my noble determining how they should be altered, and Friend that such a course would be both whether any other tests should be substiunwise and impolitic. If I correctly un- tuted. He trusted that if any change or derstand my noble Friend behind me, he modification of the law took place, it would does not propose to institute any inquiry come from the hands of the Government. He at the present moment. This case of had reason to believe that the attention of Cork as detailed by the petitioners, I fear, the Government of the late Sir Robert Peel is by no means a single one; and I am had been called to the important subject, afraid that in the course of the approach- and that if they had continued much longer ing Session of Parliament very many peti- in office, they would have laid a measure tions of a similar character will be pre- before Parliament with a view to the amendsented by different parties in Ireland, and ment of the law. The present law officers will undergo investigation, on oath, before of the Crown in Scotland were gentlemen those tribunals which are appointed for the of the highest abilities and attainments, especial purpose of inquiry into disputed and as competent as any of their predeceselections. I think that before those Com-sors to deal with the question. He thought mittees it is very possible that not only local but much general information of very considerable interest and importance may be produced; and I am far from saying that if the result should be that not only in one case but in several-from any quar-ject into their serious consideration. He ter or by any body of men-the free exercise of the right of election has been tampered or interfered with in Ireland-I am far from saying that the result of such a mass of evidence from different quarters may not justify and render necessary the intervention of the Legislature for the pur-divisions in Scotland, he was convinced that pose of preventing such an infringement if the noble Earl refrained from introducing of the law, and such an interference with a measure until he could frame one which the liberty of the subject. But, for the should be acceptable to all parties, he had present, while I cannot concur with the better abandon the attempt at once, as noble Lord opposite (Lord Monteagle) that altogether hopeless. He had no wish to my noble Friend behind me is open to any speak with the slightest disrespect of the censure for having presented the petition, opinions and feelings of those who belonged I entirely agree in the propriety of our to the Established Church in Scotland, of neither, in this nor any other similar case, which he was a member. It was but naprejudging questions which must be sub-tural that the ecclesiastical courts which mitted to competent tribunals in the other House of Parliament. Petition read, and ordered to lie on the somewhat limited and technical view of the table. UNIVERSITY TESTS IN SCOTLAND. The DUKE of ARGYLL said, he wished to put a question to the noble Earl at the head of the Government, of very pressing importance, with reference to academic tests in Scotland. It was not his intention to raise any discussion on the subject, as the facts were sufficiently known to the noble Earl, and would probably before long come in detail under the consideration of their Lordships. All who were acquainted with the subject must be impressed with a sense of the incongruity of those tests with hoped the noble Earl would not be deterred from entering upon it by finding it was not in his power to devise any measure which would meet the opinions and views of all parties. From his own knowledge of the state of parties, and of the ecclesiastical were placed in the peculiar situation of trustees of the Church, should take a question, and stand on her legal and constitutional rights, however at variance with the altered circumstances of society. Though, as he before said, he was anxious that a measure should originate with those who, in a general point of view, were known to be favourable to the interests of the Established Church, he did not desire that an attempt should be made to conciliate all opinions, or even that the measure should receive the approbation and approval of the ecclesiastical courts. Having made these observations, he would ask, whether the Government intended, during the present Session, to propose any altera |