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tion or modification of the religious tests apply to doctrine and those which apply to at present imposed on professors previous discipline. I believe the intention of the to occupying chairs in the Universities of tests to be to secure the religious character Scotland ?

of the University, and also its adherence The Earl of DERBY: I will give a to the Presbyterian doctrines of Scotland plain answer to the noble Duke. Looking against the Episcopalians, the Roman Caat the existing state of the law and the tholics, or any other body of men. The existing practice of the law, and looking, point of discipline is one altogether of moreover, at the altered circumstances of minor importance. It always happens that Scotland in regard to ecclesiastical estab. in proportion as religious bodies approach lishments, I certainly do not consider the each other more nearly in point of docpresent state of things as one calculated trine, the more earnestly they differ about to give satisfaction; but at the same time questions of discipline and points of minor the noble Duke has himself admitted the importance; and I apprehend that practiextreme difficulty of dealing with the ques-cally these tests are not brought to bear tion, which is one calculated to excite pe against Episcopalians, but are enforced culiarly strong religious feeling, and one, against members of the Presbyterian moreover, the noble Duke will bear in Church who profess the doctrines, yet dismind, in which this country is involved sent from the discipline. I am, however, one of the fundamental articles of the ready to admit, that if an alteration could Treaty of Union with Scotland having be made, which, without altering the relibeen introduced for the protection of the gious and Presbyterian character of the rights of the Presbyterian Church of Scot- Universities, could in any way tend to reland, when that country was incorporated concile the great bodies into which the with England, with an united Legislature Church of Scotland is at this moment split, in which the Scottish representatives must and give those Universities the advantage necessarily be a minority. The question of the talents and attainments of profesof the possibility of altering the existing sors belonging to the different denominalaw is under anxious consideration of tions, such a measure would be well enthe Government, assisted by the present titled to the consideration of the Governeminent chief law officer of the Crown in ment. But, as I said before, looking at Scotland. I must say that while, in the the difficulties which surround the quesfirst place, I admit that the present state tion, I cannot undertake to promise that it of the law is so unsatisfactory that it will be in the power of the Government to might be possible for the Government to bring forward any specific measure for the introduce amendments, yet it must not be amendment of the law with regard to forgotten that it is necessary, in dealing those tests. with such a question, to have peculiar re- The Duke of ARGYLL trusted that the ference to the religious feelings of a large opinions which had been expressed by the portion of Scotchmen who still adhere to noble Earl would have a good effect in the Established Church, and to take espe. Scotland. It should be recollected that cial care that, in introducing any amend after a professor had been admitted by ment into the law, we do not give a colour to taking those tests, the ccclesiastical courts the allegation that we are using the power of the Established Church had no power of the majority in a way hostile to the over him, and the declaration that he was Presbyterian Church of the country, and subject to their discipline was a mere form. for the purpose of removing restrictions Though it had the effect of excluding most and tests on which that Church sets great eminent men from the chairs of the Univalue, because they necessarily connect the versities, it did no good. There were some Universities with the doctrine and disci- men who wished for the abolition of all repline of the Presbyterian Church. Now, ligious tests, but in that opinion he was not in employing those words doctrine and dis- prepared to concur. He agreed with the cipline, I confess that, in using my own noble Earl, that, touching as this matter judgment on the subject, and without hop- did on a question that was settled by the ing in the least to do that which has been Act of Union between England and Scotadverted to by the noble Duke-conciliat- land, it was but right they should act with ing the views of all parties–I certainly the greatest caution; but he could not see would have been very desirous to have seen how a measure such as the noble Earl a distinction drawn between two distinct had alluded to, being a minimum change, portions of the tests-namely, those which could injuriously affect the interests of the Established Church, while it would mate-pressed their regret at the circumstance, rially conduce to education in Scotland, but he was bound to say that their explaand admit to the chairs of the Universities nation appeared so unsatisfactory, that an. many men who were most able to dis- other case having occurred about the same eharge the important duties connected with tiine, where a British subject was treated them.

with almost equal barshness, Her Majesty's House adjourned to Thursday next. Government felt it to be their duty to re

monstrate strongly upon the subject of

their proceedings with the Prussian Go.' HOUSE OF COMMONS, vernment. It was due to Mr. Stead to Tuesday, November 30, 1852.

say that nothing which had occurred in

connexion with his arrest was in the MINUTES.) Public Bill.-3° Bank Notes. slightest degree calculated to affect his

character injuriously. THE CASE OF MR. STEAD. VISCOUNT GODERICH said, he wished MINISTERS' MONEY (IRELANI)). to put a question to the noble Lord the MR. FAGAN rose to submit to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs House the Motion which stood opposite bis relative to the recent expulsion of Mr. name in the notice paper. Having on Francis Stead from Prussia, by the police three former occasions in the last Parliaauthorities of Berlin. It appeared that, in ment submitted a similar Motion, it was the month of August last, Mr. Stead not his intention to trespass at any great visited Berlin, and, after residing there for length on the indulgence of the House. two days, was arrested by the police, by But as he had the honour of addressing whom he was detained in custody for a many hon. Members who had entered Parwhole day, at the expiration of which pe- liament for the first time, and who knew riod he was set at liberty, with an intima- but little of the subject under discussion, tion that he must leave Berlin in the he felt it was due to them, and to the course of six hours, and that, if he re- cause of which he was the humble advoturned, he would be committed to prison cate, as shortly and as succinctly as he for one month. He (Viscount Goderich) was able, to place before the House the should be glad to know whether the Prus- leading features of the question at issue. sian Government had offered any apology And, first, he would premise that he had no or explanation of such extraordinary con- intention of interfering with the Church duct?

Establishment—that he was not coming LORD STANLEY said, that the noble forward in opposition to the wishes or the Lord had stated with accuracy the circum- interests of the Protestant ministers who stances which had accompanied the arrest receive the tax called Ministers' Moneyof Mr. Stead. Immediately after that on the contrary, as he would show, that event, Mr. Stead had very properly laid a his Motion had their approval and concurstatement of his case before Lord Bloom- rence, and that he was proposing nothing field, our Ambassador at Berlin, who repre- at variance with the objects, the purposes, sented the matter to the Prussian authori- or the preamble of the Church Temporalities, and at the same time communicated ties Act. This vexatious, and he would with the Foreign Office. Lord Bloomfield call it odious, impost, amounted to the at first received nothing more than the very paltry sum of 15,0001. a year levied usual formal reply, that inquiry should be off the occupiers of houses in eight corinstituted and explanation given. After porate towns in Ireland for the support the lapse of a little time, an explanation and maintenance-to use the language of was offered by the Prussian Government, the Act of Parliament of the Protestants to the effect that the Prussian police had in these towns. These towns were Dubobtained information from England that a lin, Cork, Waterford, Limerick, Kilkenny, person of the name of Stead was about to Drogheda, Clonmell, and Kinsale. Now it

a curious circumstance that these cated in a conspiracy to assassinate the towns may be fairly called Roman CathoKing of Prussia. They were under the lie towns, the Roman Catholic population impression that Mr. Francis Stead was the in them being in the ratio of from 6 to 1, person so described, and it was that sus- i to 4 to 1. The important towns of Ulster picion that had led to his arrest and expul- where the Protestant population prepondesion. The Prussian Government had ex. rates — Belfast, Londonderry, Armagh,

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Enniskillen, and Carrickfergus, are exempt testant population, the tax was then stated from this impost. But it is not only that at 8401., while the present valuation of the these Roman Catholic towns are alone one does not exceed 6,0001. and that of subject to this tax; it so happens that in the other is over 30,0001. But this is not these towns it is most unjustly and dis. the whole of the injustice. These poor proportionately levied from the poor Ro- people are subject to vexatious distraints man Catholic inhabitants. To explain this of their miserable furniture, if they are to the

it is necessary to state that not prepared with the tax for the support the valuation for Ministers' Money is alto- of a minister of a religion with which they gether distinct and different from the poor- had no communion-for the support of a law valuation. In the first place, no house minister, be it remembered, who believes can be valued at more than 601. for Min. it to be his duty to revile and calumniate isters' Money, though its actual valuation from the pulpit the religion of the people under the poor-law may be 1001. or 2001. who thus support him. He would harrow Now the House will readily perceive that up the feelings of hon. Members were he as such houses are occupied by the weal- to detail the miseries which the collectors thier inhabitants, who are generally Pro- of this tax have inflicted on the poor Rotestants, there is, by this provision of the man Catholic occupiers of these houses. law an unjust favouritism shown them. But his object was not to irritate; he would Bint that is not all. The valuations for therefore forbear. To do the Protestant Ministers' Money in the old parts of ministers who receive this impost justice, these corporate towns are of a very remote they are all anxious to have it abolished. date -- in some cases over one hundred This was the wish of several Protestant years--as the law is that there can be no clergymen who were examined before the valuation of a house while a stone of the Select Committee, Dr. West of Dublin, original tenement stands—even though it the Rev. Mr. Elms of Limeriek.

It was might be converted into cellars, ware- the opinion also of Dr. Higgin, then Dean houses, or counting houses, which are not of Limerick, and he had himself communisubject to the tax. Now, at the time when cations from the present Dean, Dr. Kirthis original valuation took place, the wan, one of the most accomplished and houses in these quarters were occupied by exemplary dignitaries of the Established the wealthy inhabitants, and were three Church. And if he recollected rightly, or four times more valuable than they are there was one clergyman examined before now in their present state of dilapidation the Select Committee who stated that he and deterioration, and consequently these ceased to collect the tax at all, it was so houses are subject to three times the tax truly odious to the people and to his own they would be if there were a new valua- feelings. But it is said that all this intion. Now these houses are almost exclu- justice—this inequality may be got rid of sively occupied by poor Roman Catholics. by transferring the tax from the occupiers There is an admirable illustration of these to the landlords—and by valuing all actwo statements of what the law is, to be cording to the poor-law valuation. Now found in page 21 of the Minutes of Evi- in reply to this, he would say that this dence before the Select Committee on would not get rid of the odious nature of Ministers' Money, where in a schedule the tax---of the rancorous religious feeling furnished by one of the witnesses from the which it engenders. It is in evidence becity of Cork, it is shown that while one fore the Select Committee that the landgreat establishment valued under the poor- lords of house property in Dublin and in law at 2,0001. pays but the maximum of other towns are principally Roman Catho31. Irish, another person residing in a lics, and therefore this transference would house in the old quarter of the city, valued not, like the tithe rent-charge, be placing now under the poor-law at 261. pays also the payment on Protestant landlords. Mr. the maximum rate-his house being for- Crean, a most intelligent witness before merly valued at the full value of 601. ) the Committee, and Dr. Higgin, ProtesThere is another strong illustration of this tant Bishop of Limerick, strongly corroboinequality in the city of Cork, In the rated this view. He felt satisfied that if parish of St. Mary Shandon, principally the grievous nature of this tax was in inhabited by poor Roman Catholics, the 1833 submitted to the present Earl of Ministers' Money in 1846 came to 3001., Derby, then Mr. Stanley, when he introand in the parish of the Holy Trinity, in- duced to the consideration of Parliament habited by a wealthy and principally Pro- his Church Temporalities Bill, that noble “ postpone

runs

Lord would have included it in his Bill, the country to encourage between the working for the arguments he used against Church Protestant Clergy and the great body of the com Cess applied with treble force to Minis munity, amongst whom, in the cities and towns of

Ireland, their duties are usefully and honourably ters' Money; in fact, the arguments he performed.” used raised a strong presumption that he did intend to include this assessment in Now, he did not go to the extent of the the provisions of the 73rd section of the report. He did not require the ComunisChurch Temporalities Act. This clause sioners to

or "relinquish is very important in reference to the ques- the ulterior objects contemplated by the tion now under consideration. It Church Temporalities Act. He was in a thus:

position to show that the amount of Minis“ And be it enacted, that all parishes and places

ters' Money may be included in the perwhere, by virtue of any law, statute, or custom, manent expenditure of the Ecclesiastical provision may heretofore have been made by ves- Commissioners, without requiring them to try or assessment, for the maintenance of any lessen their present expenditure for Church curate, lecturer, clerk, or other minister, or assis

purposes.

This he would come to by-andtant, in the celebration of divine service, such

by. He was confident, in the second provision by vestry or other assessment shall, from and after the passing of this Act, wholly place, of success, because of the solemn cease and determine, and it shall and may be law- pledges given in the face of Parliament to ful for said Commissioners under said Act, by and him, by the noble Lord (Lord John Rusout of the proceeds of said annual tax, and other funds aforesaid, by this Act rested in them, to sell) when Prime Minister of Englandprovide for all such purposes.”

and to Mr. Reynolds last year by the Sec

retary of State (Mr. Walpole), that they Now, if it be remembered that the words would bring in a measure to abolish this “ Protestant minister” are used in the tax in conformity with the recommendation Act of Parliament as designating the per- of the Committee. Now he could assure son who was to receive Ministers' Mo- the noble Lord and the right hon. Gentleney, it was not wonderful that the un- man, that the result in Ireland of these learned should imagine that this clause pledges was, that the clergy found extreme comprehended this obnoxious tax, and un- difficulty in collecting their incomes, and doubtedly if the word “minister" had pre- he was informed that in Kilkenny the peoceded the word curate in the clause, the ple absolutely refused to pay at all. This enactment would have been complete. reminded him of the celebrated expression Now, though he had been hitherto unsuc- used on one important occasion by the precessful in bringing this question before sent Earl of Derby. He announced in his Parliament, he felt somewhat confident speech in Parliament “the extinction of of success now for three distinct reasons. tithes,” and the consequence of that deHe was confident, in the first place, be- claration was, no tithes could be afterwards cause of the recommendation of the Select collected, and the massacre at Gurtroe Committee, made after a most anxious was the consequence. Now, he assured inquiry, and made in conformity to the the noble Lord and the right hon. Gentleviews he had always entertained. This man that their declarations had produced recommendation is embraced in the follow- in the minds of the people a very similar ing passage of the report :

feeling, and it was dangerous and unwise " In this stato of things, your Committee think to disappoint them. Lastly, and above it incumbent upon them to state that an aug- all, he felt confident of success, because of mentation of the funds of the Ecclesiastical Com the very great increase in the revenues of missioners may be rendered available as a sub- the Ecclesiastical Commissioners since the stitute for Ministers' Money, and recommend that, with that view, an amendment of the Church year 1848, when the Select Committee Temporalities Act may be made. Your Com- made the report they did—and which remittee are aware that the adoption of this mea- moves all difficulty and takes away all sure will involve the interposition of a new trust, excuse from the Government or the House. and the postponement or relinquishment of some This brought him to the consideration of of the ulterior objects contemplated by the Church the most important branch of the subject, Temporalities Act; but any objection founded on the displacement of the original objects of the namely, the question of a substitute. "The Church' Temporalities Act will be more than three great sources of permanent revenue countervailed by the great advantages which, in the hands of the Ecclesiastical Commisin a social, moral, and religious view, will sioners are—the see estates, suspended arise from the removal of an obstacle to those feelings of amity and good will, which will be dignities and benefices, and the tax on essentially conducive to the general interest of bishoprics and benefices. Now, the in

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come derived from these three sources in of the purchase-money would come into the 1847 and 1852, are as follows :

coffers of the Commissioners without di

minishing one penny the Archbishop's inSee Estates

£32,638 £50,259 Suspended Dignities

come, or taking anything from the tenant and Benefices 11,531

15,749 without giving him a full equivalent. Now, Tax on Benefices

it appears, that under the advice of an Atand Bishoprics 7,541 11,785

torney General for Ireland, the mode of Total ... £51,710 £77,793

computing the value of these perpetuities is

altered so seriously to the disadvantage of being an increase of 26,0001., and the en- the tenants that the annual receipts from tire permanent revenue was estimated by perpetuities have diminished from 30,0001. the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to be and 40,0001. down to 3,8201. sterling, re71,574. The actual receipts up to Au-ceived in 1851, and 3,8001. received in gust, 1852, were 90,6771., or 19,0001. 1852. In former years the purchasesurplus ; and this was likely to be largely money was ascertained by taking what increased. On the other hand, the ex- was called the diocesan value, and calcupenditure had decreased from 67,6771. lating that at twenty years' purchase, and in 1847, to 54,2141. in 852. And this from this amount deducting the present was to be expected, because of course year value of the tenant's interest, and then after year the expenditure for rebuilding allowing 4 per cent bonus. At present it and for repairs must of necessity diminish. is the real bona fide market value which a But it may be asked, what became of solvent tenant would pay for it from year the money? The answer is simple—over to year, which is estimated at twenty years' 28,0001. last year was invested in the purchase. This market value is considerafunds, and 10,0001. paid for annual in- bly higher than the diocesan value. Now, stalment to Government for the loan of when it is borne in mind that fifteen years' 100,0001. sterling at the commencement purchase is the highest rate given in the of their Act. He had then fully demon- Encumbered Estates Court, for property substrated that there now existed ample funds ject to a high head rent, it will be at once to induce the House to assent to the re- seen how impossible it is to expect tho commendation of the Select Committee. tenants will make these purchases without But he would not rest there. He was in much greater encouragement. He would a position to show that, if his proposition propose, then, without altering the present was adopted, the revenues of the Commis- mode of calculation, to allow a bonus of sioners would be vastly increased from a 10 per cent instead of 4. This would source which now yields but a very trifling bring the rate of purchase down to sevencomparative amount. Under the provisions teen years, which, considering the heavy of the Church Temporalities Act, the ten- head rent reserved, was quite enough for ants of bishops' leases being a tenure of the perpetuity. If this were done, he was twenty-one years—are enabled, if they quite confident the funds of the Commisagree to the terms now imposed under sioners would enormously increase. Again, that Act—to convert by purchase their ten- at the commencement of their Act, the ure into perpetuities, and the amount of Commissioners were allowed to make inthis purchase-money goes into the funds come of the annual receipts of the perof the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. Now petuity purchase-money: and it was only the entire value of these perpetuities was in 1844 that Lord Heytesbury directed valued by Mr. Finlayson, the great calcu- them to fund these receipts. Now, seeing lator, at 1,200,0801.—of this sum nearly what a large and almost exhaustless fund 700,0001. has not yet come into the hands was this perpetuity purchase-money, he of the Commissioners. Now it is evidently proposed until the permanent revenue of the interest of the Commissioners to induce the Commissioners further increased, to the tenants of see estates to purchase these allow the Commissioners, if they thought perpetuities, and their refusing to do so necessary, to appropriate a part of the reis of service to no person. Supposing, for ceipts of the perpetuity money to be the instance, that the tenants under the Arch- substitute for Ministers' Money. Again, bishop of Dublin declined to convert their it appears that the tenants of the Eccleleases into perpetuities. In that case the siastical Commissioners are not bound to Commissioners would derive no benefit from pay their renewal fines every year, and the Archbishop's estates; but if these per- they need not renew until the very last petuities were purchased, the whole amount year of their tenancy, and then the Com

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