that a sum of 1,000,000l. was struck off the Estimates at that period. Were we bound to keep up vessels of war on distant stations when we were told we were in imminent danger from a neighbouring country? He (Mr. Hume) had no belief but that the Emperor Napoleon III. would find that the strength of his Government was peace, and that the stability of France would lie in promoting free trade, and he hoped the Emperor would adopt that course. As to the vote for the National Gallery, the House had no papers as yet before it. A certain clique had got up a plan to carry the pictures out of the town to a spot where they would be of little use to the public generally; but there was a great difference of opinion on the project, and the House had a right to more information and time for consideration. With regard to the Duke of Wellington's funeral, everything that would show honour and respect for that individual, he (Mr. Hume) would be perfectly ready to concur in; but the House ought to know whether the money was properly expended, and they ought to have had an estimate of the expense.

would not oppose the going into Committee of Supply on the general grounds he stated at first. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had said that he should be prepared, on a fitting occasion, to offer to the House some views of Her Majesty's Government on the subject of administrative reform, and that they were prepared to bring the whole income of the country under the control of Parliament; but he particularly said that it would be impossible to bring forward any measure of that kind-to embark in subjects of such importance-till after the financial measures had passed. The measure to be proceeded with now was totally irrespective of administrative reform; and if it should be the opinion of the House, as he was confident it was of the nation, that the country should be placed in a complete state of defence, he hoped the House would lose no time in passing the Votes requisite for that purpose, and that they would allow his hon. Friend the Secretary to the Admiralty now to make his statement.

Motion agreed to.

House in Committee of Supply; Mr. Wilson Patten in the Chair.

SUPPLY-NAVY ESTIMATES.

(1.) 6,500 Additional Men.

The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, that there was no vote before the House for building a National Gallery; the only vote before the House was the purchase of land under rather peculiar cir- MR. STAFFORD said, that in discumstances, part of which land might cer- charging the duty which devolved upon tainly be devoted subsequently to the erec-him on the present occasion, he hoped the tion of a National Gallery, but really that hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume)— had nothing to do with the question now inasmuch as his observations had been anbefore the House. When it came on, he swered by his (Mr. Stafford's) right hon. should lay before the House the reasons Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer which induced the Government to ask the would not expect him to encumber the House to vote a sum equal to that which question before the Committee by any rewas to be contributed by the Commissioners ference to those questions to which he had of the Great Exhibition for purposes of alluded. No time could be more inopporgreat national interest and importance. tune for such discussions than that at There was no specific Vote for a National which a Supplemental Estimate was Gallery, and the only object of this Vote brought forward. In bringing forward was the purchase of land which otherwise this Supplemental Estimate, he wished to could never probably be obtained by the state that he had no intention of casting public. With regard to the funeral of the any imputations on the late Board of Adgreat personage whom we had lost, he miralty, or on the right hon. Gentlemen would beg to remind the House that they who preceded the present Government in were told in a taunting manner that pro- office. The present Government had taken bably 250,000l. would be expended. The the Estimates prepared by their predecessum was very far short of that; and it was sors. They had taken them in no party of importance to vote the necessary sup-spirit, but in the belief that unless circumply at once; it would save the public treasury no inconsiderable amount if the accounts were closed at once. Of course, a detailed account would be laid on the table, showing how every shilling was expended. He hoped the hon. Member

stances changed they would be amply sufficient for the public servise. It was usual in asking the House of Commons to grant a sum of money, to lay before it the fullest information with regard to it. At present he felt that if he entered into details he

might make a statement which would more that after they had established a paddle properly belong to the introduction of the steam fleet, and found that the paddle was general Estimates at the commencement becoming universally superseded by the of the financial year. He must, there- screw, they should leave our naval defences fore, decline making any such statement so far behindhand as to continue the padat present. If he commenced his remarks dle-wheel and go to no further expense in with the expression of an earnest desire building screw vessels. They should refor the maintenance of peace, the most member, as he had before stated, that the perfect peace, throughout the world, he expense which had been incurred was not was sure that every one on either side of to be attributed, as he believed, to wastethe House would agree with him in that ful extravagance in any great degree, and expression. The present Estimate was so that still less was it to be attributed to the completely independent of any particular love of change on the part of the Board of Power-of any particular nation-that he Admiralty, as some hon. Gentlemen had would not refer to any one country more argued in that House. He said it was to than another. The two Supplementary be attributed to the frequent new invenEstimates which he had now to submit to tions which had been forced upon their the Committee were, first, 113,000l., for consideration, and which had imposed upon 5,000 additional seamen and 1,500 ma- them the necessity of entering upon new rines; and, secondly, 100,000l. for the ne- works at a considerable cost, if they did cessary expenses of steam machinery for not wish to see the naval power of this naval purposes. When they looked back country reduced to a condition in which it over a number of years and regarded the ought not to be placed. It had been his enormous sum which had been voted for good fortune to have gone last summer to steam machinery, it was impossible not to the Mediterranean, where the present feel that they had not been able, owing to Board of Admiralty had wisely, as he unavoidable circumstances, to observe a thought, sent a screw squadron for evolustricter economy in the expenditure of tion under Admiral Dundas. The fact of it. If the hon. Member for Montrose be- their having committed the command of lieved that all the money which had been that squadron to so distinguished an officer, voted for steam machinery had been ex- had, he believed, given universal satisfac pended for that purpose, he was mistaken; tion to the Navy and to the public genebut even allowing for reductions on that rally. After having seen the evolutions of head, still he was ready to admit that the that squadron, as compared with those of sums spent were of enormous amount. sailing vessels, it was impossible not to But let them remember the circumstances arrive at the conclusion at which Admiral under which those grants were made from Dundas had arrived, thoroughly and unreyear to year. They had in the first place servedly, that the screw auxiliary was in to create a paddle-wheel steam flect, and some cases absolutely necessary. Unless they had at present to create a screw some unforeseen new mechanical power steam fleet; and that necessity had arisen should be discovered-and what new disnot only in our national establishments, covery might be made they could not unbut also in every private shipbuilding es- dertake to predict-but unless such a distablishment throughout the country. It covery were made, screws would no doubt would be found that the experiments con- become the future great motive power in nected with the new machinery, and the our Navy as well as in our mercantile manecessity of abandoning machinery after it rine. Screws were accompanied with this had been one-half, or three-fourths, or even very great advantage, that the machinery still more nearly completed, had entailed could be kept under water; that they did not only on our national marine, but also not offer paddles, which might become, as on the great private firms which consti- it were, a target for the fire of the enemy; tuted our mercantile marine, an enormous and that they did not, like the paddle-boxes, expenditure, which it was impossible to take up so considerable a space on deck avoid, because it was only by such an ex- that it was impossible to place the guns in penditure that the authorities of the Ad- the most efficient manner. IIe said that miralty were enabled to arrive at their pre- they should, therefore, henceforward resent conclusions, if conclusions they could solve upon recognising the combined power be called. He believed it would not be of the screw and the sail in our naval and the wish of the Committee, as he was sure mercantile marine. In order that the it would not be the desire of the country, Committee might have some notion of the

comparative expense of these screw steam- assumed that there should only be 2,500 ships and of the sailing vessels, he would for the first two months. Hon. Gentlemen read to them a paper which had been would see, therefore, that the Estimate had drawn up on the subject. The compari-been formed on a basis of employing only son was between a 90-gun screw steamer half the number of men for the first two and a 90-gun sailing vessel. He would state to them, in the first instance, the cost of a 90-gun sailing ship, and of a screw ship furnished with an engine of 500-horse power. He found that the first cost of a sailing ship, furnished with 90 guns, was about 108,300l., while the first cost of a 90-gun screw ship, of 500-horse power, was 151,8001. Then again, the annual expense of a sailing ship would be about 44,3351., while the annual expense of a screw ship, with the cost of coal to nearly the amount of 1,500l.—an estimate which he thought a low one, would be 51,6781., showing an increase of 40 per cent on the first cost of the screw ships, and an increase of about 20 per cent on the annual expense of the screw ship as compared with the sailing vessel. The hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) had stated that they should introduce re trenchments into their dockyard establishments. Now, he trusted that when the Navy Estimates now in the course of preparation were brought forward, it would be found that the present Government had not been remiss in that particular. They had felt that the attention of the public had been strongly directed to these establishments, and not without reason, on account of the large sums that were annually voted for their maintenance, and they could not therefore remain insensible to the necessity that existed for making a reduction in their expenditure; but, as he said before, this was not the proper time to discuss those matters. All, however, that he wished to effect at present was not to leave the Committee unaware of the future the expensive future-to which they should look forward, unless they wished to see the British Navy behind all the other navies of the world in those aids which science had applied to the development of man's dominion over the ocean. He should next pass to consider that without which the screw and the paddle-wheel would be wholly useless-he meant the number of new men whom they proposed to raise. He proposed a Vote for 5,000 additional seamen, and 1,500 additional marines, for the service of Her Majesty's Navy during the period of four calendar months. But in order to diminish the expense as much as possible, they had

months. There was a distinction between Supplemental Estimates and Annual Estimates; for while in the Annual Estimates the muster of men was already secure, the Supplemental Estimates would drive the Admiralty into the market all of a sudden for the number of seamen, and it would be idle to suppose that they could get 5,000 seamen all at once. At the same time he was happy to say that the rumour which had gone abroad with regard to the difficulty of getting men to join the Royal Navy was highly exaggerated, and that the Board of Admiralty found far more facility in obtaining those men than public rumour would lead people to believe. But let them not disguise from themselves that, at the present moment, the British sailor was, perhaps, the most precious article in the market. The Royal Navy had for competitors, not only our large mercantile marines-it had not only to encounter the present stimulus of the gold regions, but it found that there was not a single nation in the world which did not gladly accept on board her docks the British sailor; and he therefore said, it was most important that they should do everything in their power to promote his comfort, and to render the service of Her Majesty a tempting service to him. His right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said in the course of his financial statement on Friday evening, that he regretted very much that at the time when the British seaman was most efficient he should be turned adrift, and that the recruiting for the Royal Navy should afterwards begin as it were de novo. His right hon. Friend had further stated, that that matter would be submitted to the consideration of a Committee composed of persons most competent to investigate it. He (Mr. Stafford) felt persuaded that that Committee would arrive at some satisfactory conclusion. He wished, however, to inform the Committee that any of the proposed 5,000 men who might join Her Majesty's ships would be subjected to no conditions and to no restrictions except those which were already in force in the Royal Navy. There was nothing, as had been pointed out by the hon. and gallant Member for Brighton (Sir G. Pechell), more distasteful to a sailor joining one ship, than that he should be transferred to another.

The new sailors would be perfectly free to [less, than the number voted by Parliament; select their own ships for the period usual so that they had so far kept themselves among their class, and there would be no restraint upon any of those men except those already imposed upon their brothers in the service. In order to ensure the comfort and well-being of the seaman, they should consult his condition, his feelings, his fancies, and even his prejudices. If it should go abroad that there was to be the slightest change in the arrangements affecting the new force, he (Mr. Stafford) believed that they would not be able to raise 100 men in six months to join the service. The question of raising those men would naturally lead the Committee to inquire what proposition Her Majesty's Government had to make for our home defence, as far as it could in their opinion be stated with safety at the present moment. If he should then state the outline merely of the plan they had adopted, he trusted that the Committee would believe that he did not enter into more particulars merely because he felt that it would be undesirable in the present case to go further into detail. His right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that his wish was to place the Channel defences in such a position as to set that question at rest. They believed that, although it would be impossible absolutely to confine any one ship to any particular port, for it would be necessary that the fleet should exercise itself occasionally in the Channel; but they also believed that the vessels should in general be stationed at particular points, and the following was the arrangement which they were prepared to adopt on that subject. They thought there ought to be stationed at the Nore three frigates and five steamers; at Plymouth four sail of the line and five large steamers; and, lastly, at Portsmouth five sail of the line, two frigates, and six large steamers; for they had in that latter case to consider the exposed nature of the coast, and not forgetting Osborne and the hopes and loyal sympathies which often centered there, he thought this would not be looked upon as too large a force for the defence of our own shores. That was the plan which they proposed to carry into effect if Parliament should grant them the necessary funds for the purpose. They thought that they ought to have 10,000 seamen besides the marines for our home defences. He might take that opportunity of observing that they had, at the present moment, only six or seven men, more or

strictly within the limits laid down for them by the Committee. They felt, however, that the time had arrived when, with the most pacific intentions, it was absolutely necessary that we should put our Channel defences in a new position, and man the Channel with a larger force. He should repeat-with a prayer and an earnest hope of peace; and the conduct of England, since the establishment of peace, was, he believed, a sufficient guarantee to Europe that the expression of that wish on the part of the British Government was no idle word. They wished for no addition to our territory-they wished not to interfere with the internal policy of any other country; but they wished that the poorest of their subjects in the most distant quarters of the world should feel that the British flag was a succour and a source of safety him. They believed it was most desirable that England should keep faith with other nations, and should rigidly adhere to existing treaties. They felt, however, at the same time that we ought to transmit, unimpaired, to our descendants, our great colonial empire, and that we ought to have a fleet to protect in distant seas those merchant vessels whose owners were perpetually soliciting the Admiralty for the presence and the countenance of one of Her Majesty's vessels, for the purpose of securing respect for themselves and security for their commercial operations. But, above all, Her Majesty's Government sought the aid of that House-and would not, he was sure, seek in vain--in their endeavours to keep our native islands inviolate, and to render a contest short and decisive if a hostile force should ever attempt to set foot upon our shores. trusted that if he should then decline to enter into any detailed information with respect to that Vote, no Gentleman would attribute such a course to a desire to treat him individually with discourtesy, but would feel that it was owing to the determination at which the Government had arrived, after the most serious consideration, that it would be better under existing circumstances not to enter into any particulars with respect to that case. He asked the present Vote from the House of Commons, not as a Vote of Confidence in any particular Ministry, but as a Vote of Confidence in that Executive which, whatever party might be at the head of the Government, must necessarily be charged with

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the defence of the country-must necessa- would gladly learn that it had been carrily be in possession of secret and impor-ried, and he, for one, gave it his cordial tant intelligence, and must necessarily be assent. the fitting and only judge how far that intelligence ought to be communicated to the House.

MR. W. WILLIAMS said, he thought that Her Majesty's Government were justified in proposing this increase to the Navy. He deeply regretted that, during the discussions last Session on the defences of the country, the Navy was placed almost entirely out of view. The Navy, in his opinion, ought at all times to be regarded as the very bulwark of our defences. But he agreed to this proposed increase of 6,500 men to the two branches of the Navy, not because he thought it necessary, but in deference to the opinion of the people of this country, whose alarms on the subject of our national defences, ought, he thought, to be calmed by such a step as this. But when the public out of doors were informed of the present state of our national defences, he hoped they would be satisfied that we were in a state of secu

MR. HUME said, he had always declared his objections to the building of more ships than we could employ; and now it was discovered, after laying out millions of money upon war steamers with paddle-wheels, that they would not answer the purpose, and therefore a new fleet of screw steamers was necessary. That ought to show us the folly of which we had been guilty for so many years of keeping up such enormous establishments. We had been throwing away 2,000,000l. yearly upon our dockyards, and he really thought that it might be a question whether we ought not to build our ships by contract. He himself should be disposed to object to any additional Votes for the Navy until all the recommendations of the Committee up-rity against any attack, come from what stairs had been adopted-until our ships had been brought home from foreign stations, where they were only doing mischief, and until all useless officers had been placed on a retired list. We continued to keep up the number of 150 admirals, although we did not employ twenty of them. He did not know whether it would be of much use, but he protested against the Vote altogether.

LORD JOHN RUSSELL said, that the question before the Committee related to the raising of 5,000 additional seamen and 1,500 marines. That question had no connexion with those to which the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) had referred, such as the expenditure in the dockyards and the age of admirals. He (Lord J. Russell) conceived that those topics might be fitly discussed when the Naval Estimates came under consideration, and then it would be for the members of the late and of the present Government to state their views upon these subjects. But the present proposal was to raise 5,000 additional sailors, and 1,500 more marines, and he must say that such a proposal had his warm assent. He believed that it was right and necessary to provide a sufficient defence for this island, which was the citadel of a vast Empire, and he was very glad that Her Majesty's Government, having been persuaded that such a force was necessary, had not shrunk from proposing it. He believed that so far from its being an unpopular Vote, the nation

quarter it might. We had, as defences of the country, cavalry, infantry, and artillery of the line, with its auxiliaries-which forces included 187,000 men. To that were to be added, for sailors and marines afloat, 39,500 men-making a total of 226,500 men. We had, besides, in the Colonies 46,500 men, and in India 30,500, which gave us a force at home and abroad of 303,500 men. Our defences were, therefore, on a footing of unquestionable security. We had now 138,000 men engaged in the national defence more than we had in 1835. Such an increase was incredible. He was willing to admit that the Admiralty was the most efficient branch of the public service, and the present Board displayed more energy and had done more real good than any of its late predecessors. He trusted that the hon. Secretary of the Admiralty would do nothing to forfeit the good opinion thus expressed of the manner in which he had discharged his duties. He wished to call the attention of that hon. Gentleman to the system of corporal punishment at present pursued in the Navy. That system was the great obstacle to the proper manning of our fleet. It gave a power to one man to inflict punishment, without the control of any other party-a power which, he thought, ought never to be vested in the hands of any man. He (Mr. Williams) trusted also that savings banks would be established in the Navy, as had been the case (with the most beneficial results) in the Army. If they were