"chiefly obnoxious on account of its dishonorable principles and dangerous tendency." On this question many of our greatest statesmen have voiced their views. President Grant said, in part: "Let us labor for the security of free thought, free speech, free press, pure morals, unfettered religious sentiments, and equal rights and privileges for all men, irrespective of nationality, color, or religion; * leave the matter * of religious teaching to the family altar, the church, and the private school, supported entirely by private contribution. Keep church and State forever separate." The late Hon. Elihu Root said: * "I care not how small may be the numbers of a political faith or a religious sect; * * now, in this twentieth century, with all the light of civilization of our times, after a century and a quarter passed by this great and free people following the footsteps of Washington, Hamilton, Jefferson, and Madison, now with all the peoples of the world following their footsteps in the establishment of constitutional governments, the hand of a single man appealing to that justice which exists independently of all majorities, has a power that we cannot ignore or deny but at the sacrifice of the best and the noblest elements of government." The late Senator John Sharp Williams, of Mississippi, one of the most erudite of our statesmen, said: "I am not one of those who believe that tyranny is a particle sweeter because it is the tyranny of a majority. I believe, with old Roger Williams, that there are two classes of things in this world-the things of the first table and the things of the second table. These things of the first table are those things which are between God and the individual man, and Government has no right to touch them. If 99,999,999 of the people out of 100,000,000 wanted to do anything in connection with them and one man stood up in his right and said 'No', then that one man's voice should restrain all the rest. Amongst these things are freedom of religion. The people have voluntarily put upon themselves restrictions with reference to that matter. They have never established the Christian religion as the religion of their country. They had the power to do it. They had the power to refuse to restrict themselves from doing it. But they decreed that for all time there should never be among us an establishment of religion. They were wise enough to know that men always, everywhere, have weaknesses." * * * I plead to this committee to follow the traditions of this Republic as voiced by these great American statesmen. Only in this way can our institutions thrive and our people develop to the greatest their individual powers and intellect so greatly needed in solving political and economic questions with which we are now beset. Respectively submitted. THOMAS E. LITTLE, STATEMENT OF HON. WILL ROGERS, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA Mr. WILL ROGERS. I do not desire to make a long statement. Anything I say is predicated on the fact that last week we had representatives from Oklahoma come to Washington hoping to testify in behalf of the bill, and because of the short time that they had to remain here they went back home, and I merely want to call attention of the committee to the fact that Oklahoma is interested in this bill. The secretary of the educational association came, and a representative from the State department came to make a statement in behalf of the bill. I understand they submitted a written statement which will go in the record and I merely want to call attention of the committee to it. I am not authorized to speak for the entire delegation of Oklahoma, but in my opinion if this bill ever reaches the floor of the House or the Senate it will have the united support of the Members from Oklahoma. Our State has been trying to finance the educational system, and that fact is proved by the recent appropriation the legislature made of $12,600,000 for the support of schools in Oklahoma. This is almost half of the total appropriations made by the legislature. It is almost half of the amount of money required to run the schools in Oklahoma. I think we have been doing our part along that line but we still find that we cannot maintain our schools without some further assistance, and for that reason I am in favor of this legislation. Mr. BOYER. What is the constitutional tax? Mr. WILL ROGERS. Ten and five. Mr. BOYER. Fifteen. Mr. WILL ROGERS. Yes. Mr. BOYER. That is all you can do there? Mr. WILL ROGERS. We have districts in the State that cannot maintain an 8-months' school term on that basis. Mr. BOYER. You could on the 45 like Illinois has under the constitution. Mr. WILL ROGERS. Yes; it would have to be a constitutional amendment. Mr. FLETCHER. Do not many corporations that draw their wealth out of Oklahoma pay their taxes in other States? Mr. WILL ROGERS. That is right. Mr. STEFAN. You have been a school teacher? Mr. WILL ROGERS. For 15 years in the public schools of Oklahoma. Mr. STEFAN. Are you in favor of $60 per year per pupil approximately, and do you believe that would solve our deficiency problem in the county? Mr. WILL ROGERS. It would approximate it in Oklahoma. We spend something like between $30 and $40 for grade pupils and something like $70 and $100 for high-school students. I think that would approximate solving the problem in Oklahoma. However our salaries are low in Oklahoma. Mr. STEFAN. The general program, it has been stated in our committee by some of the educational authorities who have already appeared before us, is that $60 per year per pupil would come nearer solving our educational problem throughout the United States than anything else suggested in the matter of equalizing the amount of money spent per pupil, $60 per pupil. Mr. WILL ROGERS. That would be a very fair solution in Oklahoma. Mr. STEFAN. The people of your State would be willing to put this on a basis of the value of property and in other States, such as Illinois, for instance, they have a tax rate this year of $4.50 per hundred dollars, as high as $4.50 in some particular districts? Do you believe that the people of your community would be anxious enough for this bill if they had to increase the assessed valuation per thousand? Mr. WILL ROGERS. I would have to give you only my own opinion. and experience I have had in the public schools of Oklahoma, but I have found that the people of Oklahoma want good schools and we have constitutional limitations, but our districts practically unanimously vote the limit for educational purposes. If it were necessary to increase it, it could be done under the constitution. 3410-37-25 Mr. KITCHENS. Do you have an income tax in Oklahoma! Mr. KITCHENS. Does part of that go to the schools? Mr. BOYER. You have a gasoline tax? Mr. WILL ROGERS. Yes. Mr. BOYER., How much is the gasoline tax in Oklahoma? Mr. WILL ROGERS. A total of 11⁄44 cents. Mr. BOYER. I mean the State and Government tax combined. Mr. KITCHENS. Altogether? Mr. WILL ROREGS. Yes. Mr. STEFAN. You have a 3 cent gasoline tax. Mr. WILL ROGERS. The Federal Government 1 and the State 2. The total is 3. Mr. STEFAN. Is any of that diverted to anything except roads? Mr. WILL ROGERS. Yes; some of it goes to schools. Mr. STEFAN. How much? Mr. WILL ROGERS. I will not be able to say. Mr. STEFAN. About half? Mr. WILL ROGERS. I cannot say. That is up to the legislature. Mr. KITCHENS. Do you have a tax on cigarettes ? Mr. WILL ROGERS. Yes, sir. Mr. KITCHENS. Part of it goes to schools? Mr. WILL ROGERS. Yes; that money is apportioned by the legislature. This is for running expenses. We have also building levies and bonding levies in addition to that, which makes a total of about 23 percent. Mr. FLETCHER. Does any of your liquor tax go to schools? Mr. WILL ROGERS. We only have beer in Oklahoma. Mr. BARRY. There is a county in Ohio that is interested in a criticism of spending money and our budget is well out of balance. Some people say that we have inflation upon us and we still have approximately 10 million people out of work. We have new relief bills pending in the House and in view of all that, do you think that at this particular time we can afford an educational policy of this magnitude? Mr. WILL ROGERS. I think that is a question we have to face, some of it, and during my first term in Congress after we passed the Agricultural Adjustment Act, a tax on cattle, a bill came to the House and into the Senate for a cattle tax, a basic industry under the Agricultural Adjustment Act, and that called for an appropriation of $200,000,000 and there was not a single vote against it either in the House or the Senate. Mr. BARRY. The policy is supposed to be that we will have no more taxes. I am wondering where the money is going to come from. We are spending a lot. Mr. KITCHENS. The farmer for his 100 bushels of wheat 4 years ago paid $25 tax and today he can pay $50 tax and still have 75 or 80 dollars left. The farmer in my section in 1933 for one bale of cotton paid $25 tax and today he can pay $50 and still have a bale of cotton left, compared with 1933. The man that bought various stocks in this country in 1933 today he would have from 5 to 10 times as much as then. Therefore, when we had a debt of $20,800,000,000 in 1933 and today we have a debt of $34,000,000,000, and the farmer can pay the $34,000,000,000 a great deal easier than in 1933. Mr. BARRY. I do not want to talk like a Republican, but I will say that the farmer that operated under the three A's-a conservation act can borrow money from the Farm Credit Corporation at 32 percent. Even the Lemke bill has been declared constitutional so that they can go and get a title in 3 years under a Federal petition in bankruptcy and still own property. I think the farmers are pretty well taken care of by this country. We have been so liberal with our money that these people have bought more and acquired more and the farmers' private property has been increased and, of course, the public debt has been increased, and I am a little concerned. We have written a naval appropriations bill and, of course, war may break out at any minute and we cannot control the coast with rowboats. We need a good-sized Navy. But there is the proposition, answering the gentleman's question. It is a question of fundamental policy whether or not we should go into education on a national scale. Mr. WILL ROGERS. Lending financial assistance. Mr. BARRY. There is a further question in my mind. It is a beautiful thing to have high standards in the educational system of the country. I am for that. But it is not a necessity. I postponed going to Harvard and I never got there. Lots of things I wanted to do had to be postponed because of the financial circumstances I was in. Mr. KITCHENS. You did the best you could. Mr. WILL ROGERS. Yes. Mr. FLETCHER. What would you do today Mr. Barry if you had only an eighth-grade education? What would be your chances of earning a living and supporting your family with less than an eighth-grade education? Mr. BARRY. I think it would be rather difficult. Mr. FLETCHER. That situation confronts many millions of children who will have to pay this debt of ours of $35,000,000,000. In the long run they pay it. Mr. BARRY. Some parents sacrifice to send their children to school. Some children sacrifice in order to go to school. Those things have to be taken into consideration. Mr. FLETCHER. The children have to balance their budget to make a living and if it is unbalanced that tends to make communism and agitation. We pay for it in the long run. Mr. BARRY. We have had this situation and we have not had communism. What is going to bring about communism, if at all, is 10 million people out of work and we are proposing a new W. P. A. bill. It is somewhat of a difficult proposition. This bill could wait. Mr. FLETCHER. The children cannot wait. The CHAIRMAN. I agree with it 100 percent that the farmers have been much better off in the last 3 years than they have been prior to that. It seems to me in view of the fact that there has been an increase of from 100 to 200 percent in earnings that they having a pride in their children, having increased their earnings, it seems to me according to the testimony, the testimony here has been that the State legislatures where the farmers have enjoyed prosperity, 100 to 200 percent, have by actual vote reduced their appropriation to the schools. That is true of the schools in Michigan and it is true in Ohio and Pennsylvania and I cannot understand why the farmers, having increased their earning capacity 100 to 200 percent, reducing their appropriations to educate the children, why they would come here, on the one hand based on the fact that they had a bigger income, and then deny to the children their pro-rata share of their profits in the way of education. Mr. FLETCHER. In some sections they are producing 50 percent more children than required to maintain the population. The CHAIRMAN. It is 200-percent increase in some counties. Mr. FLETCHER. The picture is not the same in Arkansas as in some States. Mr. ROGERS. We have increased. Mr. STEFAN. Referring to the statement of Mr. Kitchen I would say that probably the farmers have benefited perhaps in some places, but in my district the farmers are broke today. They have had drought in five counties in my district and 650 farmers have lost their farms and gone away. I have some letters and telegrams from the State which I will put in the record. The CHAIRMAN. All right. Mr. STEFAN. I voted to recommit the naval appropriations bill to cut off $100,000,000 because I believed that $400,000,000 for the Navy during peacetime was sufficient. I will agree that $120,000,000 for two capital ships is too much money. I say that because I feel that when we destroyed the newly built capital ship the Washington, which cost over $30,000,000, we made a blunder. We destroyed that and many other good ships while foreign nations in the naval disarmament program merely destroyed blueprints. If we had those ships now-those ships which we actually destroyed-we would not have to spend hundreds of millions for new ships. We could have that money for education or for the relief of farmers in my district. We had a drought in my district and today these farmers can't get enough money to plant seed or money for actual livestock feeding purposes. I believe that every boy and girl in America is entitled to an education. I have letters and telegrams from educators in my State urging the passage of this bill because they tell me conditions are such in my State that the schools cannot give the needed education to all of the boys and girls. That notwithstanding the fact that my State of Nebraska is right up in the front ranks of States which spend more than many other States for education. We, in Nebraska, spend around $72 per pupil in our schools. We are told here by experts that the ideal program for the entire United States should be a $60-per-pupil program. We are told that if this program could be carried out, the Government would have to appropriate annually $2,200,000,000. This would be on the basis that the States would be appropriating what they now appropriate annually. This bill calls for $300,000,000 grant at the end of the 5-year period. This indicates this is just a start in the right direction toward the needed education. I wish to tell these gentlemen who are testifying before us that I am interested in education. If I were not I would not remain on this committee. I know many teachers are underpaid. I believe in the principles of this bill. But I want first of all an education |