1710-11. ham. E. of Wharton. Anno 9 Anna, Motion in the Houfe, but that it might be confidered in the Committee; that as to the two Petitioners, it was reasonable and proper to grant them Time to put in their Answers, because the Question tended to cenfure them; which they did not know before, when they were only examined: And that in Things effential to Juftice, the ordinary Forms of Earl of Notting- Courts of Judicature ought to be obferved.' To this the Earl of Nottingham answered, That they could never be too tender of the Reputation of Men of Honour; but that, in his Opinion, the Petitions ought not to be granted; because this was no proper Time to deliver them, and because the Petitions themselves were improper; that the Act of Indemnity ought to be facred, but not preffed too far; that the Petitioners had already been heard, and allowed Time to add any thing to their former Declarations; that now the Lords were not enquiring into Facts, but forming their Judgments upon them; and, that the admitting the Lords Galway and Tyrawley to take notice of what paffed in the House, would be admitting them to a Co ordination with the Lords.' The Earl of Wharton replied, That a Cenfure is a Punishment; that to punish Men, without giving them an Opportunity to make their Defence, is equal to a Banifhment; that he hoped the Subjects of England were not yet reduced to that; that this was the only Time the Petitioners could have to make this Application to the Houfe; that the leaft thing the Lords could do, was to hear them, before Condemnation, fince any other Criminals might claim that Privilege; concluding, he did not fpeak for the Sake of thofe two Lords, but for the Honour and Reputation of the House.' The Earl of Nottingham answered, He did not fay they could never be heard, for they might be heard, if the Houfe fhould order a Profecution, but only that they could not be heard on this Occafion. That they might be as innocent as any of the Lords, because they might have given their Opinion according to the best of their Underftandings, or might have been over-ruled: Which might be afterwards enquired into.' The Duke of Buckingham, who fpoke on the fame Side, faid, 'That he had a great Refpect for those two noble Lords who petitioned; and was as tender of the Honour and Reputation of the House, as any Member: That therefore he was afraid of making Precedents, and altering parliamentary Rules: That, ac cording to the Forms of inferior Courts, no Man has a Right to be heard, or to ftop Proceedings on Account of his Reputation, as on Account of his Property; that he was apt to believe, that fome Perfons, who did not like this Enquiry, had put thofe two Lords upon petitioning, to gain Earl of Nottingham. Duke of Buckingham. Time; but, tho' he would not have the Petitions granted, Anno 9 Annæ, yet he would move, that they might be called in, and heard.' 1710-11./ Hereupon the Earl of Paulett faid, That they had already Earl Poulett. been heard, and had declared they had no more to say: So that the Defign of these Petitions was only to delay.' But the Duke of Shrewsbury faid, That if they were ready Duke ofShrewfto be heard, he confented they fhould, provided they de- bury. livered nothing in Writing, which might occafion Delays.' The Earl of Godolphin, in Anfwer to what had been urged Earl of Godolby the Earl of Paulett, faid, 'It was true, they had been phia, heard before; but that there was new Matter, and an Imputation, wherefore it would be hard upon them not to be heard. To this the Earl of Ferrers anfwered, That the Earl of Ferrers. Queftion contained only a Propofition to cenfure a Council; that their Lordships were yet come to no Refolution upon it; and, as a Petition to a Debate of the Houfe was never offered before, he thought it unreafonable to grant thefe. That, as they must not judge by Succefs, fo the declaring that the Lords Galway and Tyrawley had given an ill Coun cil, was no Cenfure.' On the other hand, the Lord Halli. L. Hallifax, fax faid, That, out of an Affectation of avoiding Delays, and of not going faft enough, they went fo faft, that they muft come back. That the Petitioners had, indeed, been examined, but were not heard to the Question propofed by the Earl of Peterborough; and that the Lord Tyrawley was even interrupted when he began to speak of the Battle of Almanza. Pray, my Lords, added he, proceed according to the Rules of Juftice. When Sir George Rooke was called in Queftion, he was heard for three Days together. What, will you not hear thefe two Lords, before you pass a Refolution that touches their Reputation? For my. Part, when I hear thefe Arguments, I could flop my Hearing. The Earl of Paulett faying thereupon, That if they were Earl Paulett. ready to be heard, he readily agreed they fhould. The Lord Hallifax infifted, That their Demand ought to be Lord Hallifax. granted; urging befides, That the very Paper upon which was not yet read. To this the Earl of Marr anfwered, He did not wonder fome Perfons Earl of Marr. endeavoured to fhuffle and prolong the Debate; but if they granted thefe Petitions, they might afterwards be defired to poftpone this Enquiry, till Mr. Stanhope could be heard.' the whole Debate turned, . The Duke of Argyle added, That he had, himself, afked Duke of Argyle, the Petitioners, whether it had been refolved to act offen fively, to which they had given their Answers in the Affirmative; which was the material Point in Queftion. The Duke of Devonshire infifted, That, as the Refult of thefe Duke of Devon◄ Debates might be put in a Reprefentation to the Queen, the shire Peti 1710-Iг. Duke of Leeds. bate.' Lord North and Grey. Lord Keeper. Anno 9 Anna, Petitioners ought to have an Opportunity to be heard.' To which the Duke of Buckingham answered, That if they debated that Matter any longer, it would be the fame as if Duke of Bucks. they granted their Petitions. Nevertheless, the Lord GuernLord Guernsey, fey, fpeaking on the fame, faid, That, if the Question for rejecting the Petition, was put, and carried, they might then be heard to Matter of Fact; but, as to Matter of Opinion, they could not be heard; and fo concluded, that the Queftion, to reject the Petition, be put in the House, and the Lord Paulett's Queftion afterwards debated in the Commit Earl of Scarbo- tee.' The Earl of Scarborough faid, That, if the Petitioners rough. were to be heard again, he wished they might be upon Earl of Paulett. Oath.' And the Earl of Paulett added, He hoped they fhould hear no more of the Act of Indemnity in this DeThe Duke of Leeds faid, He thought the Petitions irregular, however, he moved, that they might be laid on the Table, and taken no Notice of. Which Motion was backed by the Lord North and Grey. But the Duke of Duke of Bucks, Buckingham infifted, That the Petitions being irregular, the Question for rejecting them ought to be put; and if carried, fuch Lords as pleafed might enter their Protefts: Duke of Leeds. Upon which the Duke of Leeds faid, He fhould be forry to fee Proteftations made on that Occafion.' The Lord Keeper having, at laft, put the Queftion, Whether the Pe titions fhould be rejected? t was carried in the Affirmative, by a Majority of 57 Voices, against 46, that were for the E. of Abingdon. Negative. Hereupon the Earl of Abingdon faid, He fup. pofed, any body that prefented Petitions, attended to know whether they were granted, or rejected: And the Duke of Shrewsbury moving, That they should be called in," the Duke of Argyle faid, He took it for granted, that the Petitioners were out of the way, and not to be found; and there. fore moved, that the Committee might proceed. An Offcer having informed the Lords, that the Petitioners were Earl of Paulett. not at the Door; the Earl of Paulett faid, All this looked Earl of Ferrers. like a Delay. And the Earl of Ferrers moving, that a Duke of Bucks. Meffige might be fent to them, the Duke of Buckingham moved, for adjourning the Houfe, during Pleasure, in order to confider the Earl of Paulett's Question in a Committee of the whole House, into which the Lords went immediately, and of which the Earl of Abingdon was chofen Chairman. The Earl of Peterborough opened the Debate with faying, That, having the Queen's Orders to be gone, he hoped the Lords would give him an Opportunity to clear fome Heads that had been laid against him by the Secretary of Duke of Bucks. State.' But the Duke of Buckingham faid, the Question ought to be read, in the first place: Whereupon the Earl of D. of Shrew bury. D. of Argyle. Earl of Peterborough. Abingdon Earl of Peterbo rough. Abingdon read the Earl of Paulett's Motion before mentioned. Anno 9 Annæ, Then the Earl of Peterborough acquainted the Lords, That 1710-11. this going out of Spain for Italy, was in order to concert Meafures for the Siege of Thoulon, according to his Inftructions: Being empowered to treat and negotiate with the Duke of Savoy, particularly about the Siege; of which he had given an Account in Writing. That he had several Conferences with the Duke of Savoy and Prince Eugene, in his Royal Highness's Clofet, the Refult of which he fent to the Court of England, and to the King of Spain. That he had afterwards feveral Conferences with my Lord Galway and Mr. Stanhope, to concert further Measures for the carrying on the Projects made in Italy: But, tho' he had acted according to his Inftructions, he was, in a Letter from the Earl of Sunderland, dated the 28th of September, 1706. O.S. recalled, for negotiating Matters of fo high a Nature, without the Queen's Authority, which might be prejudicial to her Majelty's Service.' Hereupon the Earl of Rochester Earl of Rocheffaid, That the Earl of Peterborough ought to apply himself ter. to the Matter in question; and moved that the faid Question might be read again; which the Chairman did: After which the Earl of Peterborough faid, He apprehended their Lord- Earl of Peterfhips would enquire into the Difappointment before Thoulon, borough. in order to which he thought it very proper to acquaint them, that five thousand Men, which he demanded for the Reduction of that Place, were denied him, to be employed about imaginary Conquefts. And, that he received the Thanks of King Charles, for the Projects he had concerted in Italy; but a public Minifter defired, he might not be rufted.' The Duke of Argyle defiring that the Earl of Pe Duke of Argyle. erborough's Papers might be read; that, in particular, which hewed, that the Duke of Savoy infilted, that there might be a defenfive Campaign in Spain; while the Earl of Peterrough was looking for that Paragraph, in his own French Jetter to Sir Charles Hedges, dated September the 10th, 1706, he Earl of Godolphin moved, That the whole Letter might Earl of Godole read: Whereupon the Letter was delivered to the Clerk; phin, ut, the Earl of Peterborough taking it from him, read it Earl of Peterimfelf; and the most remarkable Expreffions in it, relating borough. o the Queftion, were thefe: La prise de Toulon me paroit raticable On demande 5000 hommes des troupes d'Espagne ; hat is, The taking Toulon appears practicable to me; 5000 Men of the Troops in Spain are demanded for that Purpose. The Earl of Godolphin infifted, That if any Strefs was to Earl of Godole laid upon this Letter, the fame might be tranflated and phin. ead by the Clerk.' Notwithstanding which, the Earl of Peterborough continued reading; after which the Lord Cow- Lord Cowper. 1710-11 Sf per. 1710-11. Earl of Peter borough. Anno 9 Annæ, per backed the Earl of Godolphin's Motion, faying, 'He could not understand the Letter as the Earl of Peterborough read it And how could their Lordships proceed to a Cenfure, without having a material Paper in the Language of the Country? To this the Earl Peterborough faid, That it being thought fit not to entrust any Secretary with his Project, he wrote that Letter himself to Mr. Secretary Hedges; and that he could not write it in any other Language, to be understood by the Duke of Savoy, and Prince Eugene, who kept both a Copy of it, as well as himself: But if their Lordfhips defired to have it tranflated, he moved they might adjourn, for he was no Secretary to tranflate it himself. The E. of Abingdon. Earl of Abingdon owned, the latter was not read regularly: But the Earl of Paulett waving that Matter, faid, 'The French could not have relieved Thoulon, if the War in Spain D. of Argyle. had been defenfive.' And the Duke of Argyle added, ⚫ That the Strels of the Question was, Whether the Duke of Savoy infifted upon a Defenfive War in Spain. Earl Paulett. Earl of Peterborough. the Duke of Marlborough. Earl of Peterborough. Earl of Paulett. The Earl of Peterborough averring, that he infifted fo firmly upon it, that he defired to have 5000 Men out of Spain: The Duke of Marlborough acquainted the Lords, That the Project of an Attempt upon Thoulon was first propofed to the Duke of Savoy, by Mr. Hill, in the Year 1703, and afterwards negotiated there by his Grace himself with his Royal Highnefs's Minifters, Count Brianfon, and Count Maffey; that 50000 /. were, at firit, offered to the Duke of Savoy, for that Purpofe; but it was, at laft, agreed, that he fhould have 100000 /. That the Year before the Execution of this Defign, the Duke of Savoy earnestly defired, that it might be kept very fecret; fo that it was very improbable he should fpeak of it to any body, and defire 5000 Men out of Spain for that Purpose:' Concluding, That the Attempt upon Thoulon did not mifcarry for want of Men, fince there were near 17000 left behind in Italy; but for want of Time, and other Accidents.' Notwithstanding this, the Earl of Peterborough affirmed, That, according to his Inftructions, he had concerted with the Duke of Savoy the Attempt upon Thoulen.' Whereupon the Earl of Paulett faid, That in fuch a Cafe, 5000 Men out of Spain might have made a ftrong Diverfion, and contributed to the Reduction of that Place. After this, the Clerk read a Letter from the Lord Godolphin to the Lord Peterborough, dated February the 7th, 1708-9, importing, in Substance, That Care had been taken of all his Bills; that they were all (upon which the Earl of Peterborough cried, Protefted!) fatisfied, that the War in Catalonia ought to be Offenfive; and that this: was the particular Defire of Prince Eugene, which ought to be complied with,' ' The |