ation of the members of the House, and not for that of the public, as the worthy alderman appeared to think. Mr. Alderman Wood repeated his opinion, that the proposition which he had submitted ought to be adopted. Mr. Moore concurred in this opinion, feeling it to be just and necessary, that upon a question, in which the character and liberty of a fellow-subject, as well as the privileges of that House were concerned, the fullest and most accurate information should be adduced. The Speaker observed, that the letter alluded to would appear in the votes, which were printed for the information of the members, but he felt it right to apprize the House, that as there was no short-hand writer present at the time the prisoner was examined at the bar, the substance of his answers only, as they were taken by the clerk, would appear in the votes, and not the questions and answers, as they were put in the regular way. Mr. Hutchinson said, he had not joined in the vote of commitment. He thought the proceeding unusual if not extraordi⚫ nary and severe at least the House had proceeded with some precipitation, and it might have been better, perhaps, for the dignity of its own proceedings, if it had restrained itself from sending an unfortunate individual to prison, until the impression produced by the statement of the hon. member had in some degree subsided. He was very anxious that the country should not lose any part of the evidence given at the bar, and tending to justify the commitment. Mr. Alderman Wood added, that he had not joined in the vote, because he really was not fully possessed of the facts, not having entered the House until late. HOUSE OF LORDS. Thursday, February 25. STATE OF PRISONS.] Lord Sidmouth rose to call their lordships attention to the papers which he had, in obedience to the commands of the Prince Regent, laid on the table, in pursuance of the address moved by the noble marquis opposite for the returns of the State of Prisons and Penitentiary houses. He had the satisfaction of stating that the manner in which these returns appeared to be made, was calculated to remove the apprehension which the noble marquis had entertained, of some inaccuracy in drawing them up. From the examination he himself had given the returns, he did not think that there could be any material imperfection in them. Every pains had certainly been taken to produce accuracy. Letters had been written to all the sheriffs of counties, requiring returns of the state of all the gaols under their superintendence. All the clerks of the peace had also been di rected to make similar returns of the pri sons under their control or management. Similar directions had been sent to the magistrates of cities; and he was happy to state, that with one or two exceptions, the directions given had been correctly complied with in the returns. If any deficiency should appear, he should be happy to see it pointed out; and assured their lordships, that he would use every endeavour to have it corrected without delay. From England and Wales, the returns were nearly complete, as well as those from Scotland; but some were still want. ing from Ireland. Upon the whole, about five-sixths of the returns had been received, and he regarded them as in a state of sufficient completeness to be referred to a committee of their lordships' House. With respect to the number of persons committed, convicted, and executed, their lordships were now accurately informed, by returns regularly made for the whole country, from 1805, when the regulation commenced, down to the last year. There was also a return for the county of Middlesex and the city of London, of the convictions and executions, from 1749 to 1818. It was with great satisfaction he could state, on the authority of these returns, that there had been a decrease of crimes during the last year. The diminution, it was true, was not considerable, but still it was gratifying to observe. It was farther gratifying to observe, that a decrease had taken place in Middlesex and London. In the county of Middlesex it appeared that the diminution had been proportionally greater than in any other county, Rutland and Glamorgan excepted. Some persons had been of opinion, that the state of the prisons was the principal cause of the increase of crimes during late years: others had attributed that increase to the circumstances in which the country was placed. The first proposition, he believed could only be maintained by those who had paid no attention to the many acts of the legislature which had been passed for the regulation and management of prisons, and to the many other obvious causes | annual average number of convictions was of the increase of crimes, besides that on 62, and of executions 43. From the which they had fixed. It was indeed, latter period to the present time the too much to say, that the increase average number of convictions, was 107, of crimes was chiefly to be imputed to the and of executions only 19. This statement state of the prisons. He had little hesi- certainly did not exhibit any thing like a tation in asserting, that had every prison sanguinary character in the execution of in the kingdom been in that state which the laws. It might indeed be a question, the most benevolent person could have whether in some instances they had not wished, still the circumstances in which been administered with too much lenithe country had been placed would have ency. On this part of the question, he increased them. The pressure of the ne- could not help observing, that one means cessary burthens which the country had of remedying the evil of the increase of sustained, the deficiency in the demand crimes would be to take care that the pufor labour, the number of individuals dis- nishments short of death were strictly encharged from the army and navy, and all forced. He was sorry to say, that in the other circumstances of derangement consequence of unavoidable circuminto which the country had been placed stances, the punishment of transportation by the sudden change from war to peace, had lost many of its salutary terrors. formed a variety of causes which could The number of persons liable to transpor not fail to induce a tendency to crimes, tation had so greatly increased within the even if the gaols had been in the best last seven years, that when they arrived possible state with respect to the means at the place of their destination, it was of classification and labour. To look at difficult to find the means of classifying the state of the gaols as the only cause of or properly disposing of them. In the the evil which their lordships had to con- hulks, however, a classification had taken sider, would be taking a very imperfect place, religious instruction was adminis view of the subject, and one which would tered, and constant and regular labour be likely to lead to a very incomplete performed. A regulation had also, within remedy. Even if the best plans had been the last three years been adopted, which devised for the classification of prisoners, had proved of the greatest advantage, the crowded state of the gaols, which the with reference to the behaviour of the increase of crimes had occasioned, would convicts. It had been thought proper to have rendered the proper execution of discharge those who behaved in an exthose plans impracticable. To find an emplary manner, upon certificates to that adequate remedy for the evil, their lord- effect. The instances were few in which ships must revert to the real causes of the persons so recommended were not that enormous increase of crimes which pardoned, and he was happy to say, that had so justly attracted their attention. the instances were also few in which the They must apply their minds to discover persons who had experienced that favour the means of removing those causes, and were found to return to their former situaof effectually diminishing crimes, and tion. He should not enter into the quesabove all that master crime which, year tion of the propriety of confining convicts after year, swelled the melancholy cata- in hulks. That system had been resorted logue laid before parliament. The state to on the loss of our American colonies; of the criminal law, as it respected pu- and whether it was right or wrong originishments, would also demand their lord-nally, it was certain that it was now greatly ships' attention. By some that law was held out as a sanguinary code. Others had conceived that lenity in enforcing it was a great cause of the evil under which the country laboured. As to the supposition, that the execution of the laws had become more sanguinary, he conceived that it was completely contradicted by the returns on the table. It appeared, from the returns for the county of Middlesex and London which commenced in the year 1749, down to the year 1805, when the regular returns began, that the improved: this, the returns on their lordships table would show. There was another branch of the subject-imprisonment in gaols for offences; which, from the reports of the magistrates in different parts of the country, had ceased to answer the great purpose of punishment, namely, the prevention of crimes. Those who attributed the increase of crimes to the state of the prisons were generally of opinion, that the object of making im prisonment effectual in this respect, would be attained by a reform of the gaols. It certainly ought to be their lordships aim [ to make such regulations, that those who entered a gaol might not become more corrupt than before; but, on the contrary, that they should leave it improved in their habits and morals. He must, however, at the same time contend, that comfort and classification were not the sole objects to which their lordships ought to look. Imprisonment, to produce any good effect, must preserve a penal character. If a person who had been guilty of an offence left his prison with his mind improved, it was right that he should also carry with him a painful recollection of the punishment to which he had rendered himself liable. It was not fit that he should have to give to his neighbours, and those with whom he might afterwards associate, such an account of the situation in which he had been placed, as would diminish the salutary terror of the punishment of imprisonment. While looking to the communication of religious instruction, and the improvement of morals, their lordships would always bear in mind that prisons ought to be instruments of punishment. He did not mean to say that much might not be done by a good system of prison discipline, and that due attention ought not to be directed to that important object; but it would be found that there were many local prisons, the abuses of which depended on circumstances which could not be corrected without great labour and expense. He wished to go into the inquiry with a full conviction of rendering the investigation useful. On that ground he wished to call their lordships attention to the real causes of the increase of crimes. The information laid on the table must form the basis of the inquiry. The evil was one which called upon their lordships to apply their utmost labours to remove. We might be a great, a rich, and a powerful nation; but how could we expect these blessings to continue, if we did not remove those causes of crimes which were calculated to undermine our greatness. However high we might hold our heads, we ought never to forget that the only true foundation of national prosperity was, a religious and moral people. Under these impressions he should move, "That a select committee be appointed to consider of the papers presented on the 19th and 23rd of the present month, relative to the state of the gaols, prisons, and penitentiary houses in the United Kingdom." The Marquis of Lansdowne said, he had heard the speech of the noble viscount with great satisfaction, and was glad he had taken up the subject. It was with much satisfaction he found, that the ob ject which he had in view, when he first addressed their lordships on the subject, came now recommended to them by greater authority. He must, however, observe, that the nature of the inquiry proposed by the noble viscount greatly exceeded, in magnitude and extent, that which he meant to propose. The noble viscount's motion referred all the papers on the table, relating not merely to pri sons, but to the increase of crimes, to the committee. In one limited sense this latter part of the inquiry would be of advantage, in enabling their lordships to ascertain how far the state of the prisons was adequate to the increase of offences; but to go into all the causes of crimes, would be an inquiry of too large a description to lead to any speedy or prac tical result. The noble viscount had adverted to persons who, he said, supposed that the state of prisons was the only cause of the increase of crimes. Who those persons were, he was at a loss to know. The only opinion he had ever heard held on the subject was, not that the state of prisons was the only cause, but that it was a great accessory and accelerating cause of this evil. It was because the other causes required too deep a consideration that he objected to going into that part of the inquiry. It would be better were their lordships to confine themselves to a cause which they could reasonably hope to remove. Unless the committee received a far larger instruction than appeared in the reference of the noble viscount, it would be impossible for them to investigate all the causes of the increase of crimes; and if they did obtain sufficient authority, the inquiry would be too tedious to produce that prompt remedy which the case required, and which, by confining their inquiry, they might speedily apply. If they were to go into the consideration of the criminal law, there were about seven hundred and fifty acts which they would have to examine. They would have to inquire how far these laws were consistent with their object; how far many of them were inconsistent with each other; and how far they might be found capable of carrying with them the feelings and opinion of the public. They would have to enter into speculations on the effect of the criminal laws, which had engaged the attention of the ablest authors and the greatest legislators. How far it was advisable for a committee on the state of prisons to take up this wide, but certainly not unimportant inquiry, he left for their lordships consideration. He confessed, for his own part, that if their inquiry was persisted in, he must go into the committee with little more than the hope of obtaining, in some few respects, a more uniform rule than at present existed for the management of prisons. It was possible that the committee might be the means of establishing an equal and impartial rule of imprisonment. He did not say this from a feeling that any intentional partiality was at present manifested. The sentences of the judges might be in all similar cases the same, and the intention of the magistrates to see them strictly executed most sincere; yet, from the nature of local jurisdictions, it was impossible but that the most glaring inequalities would take place in the punishment of imprisonment. Another important object which he thought might be accomplished, was the laying down a distinct rule respecting the treatment of prisoners before and after conviction. The noble viscount had told their lordships, that in any regulations for the government of gaols they ought not to lose sight of the penal character of imprisonment; but it surely must be the greatest injustice when that penal character was allowed to commence before conviction. There ought, therefore, to be one system of imprisonment for persons charged with offences, and another for those found guilty; and the latter should besides be made subject to some regular plan of classifiation. Another advantage which might be hoped for from the committee, if its labours were confined to really practicable objects, would be the compelling gaols of local jurisdiction to adopt the general prison discipline, or, where that could not be done, to transfer their prisoners to the nearest county gaol. Lastly, to devise the means of bringing the state of the prisons annually before parliament and the country, might be found an object worthy of the attention of the committee. Above all, it might be found practicable to effect the establishment of some general system of labour, which might be made the means of supporting the expense of the gaols, as well as of reforming the prisoners. To show the beneficial effects of a system of proper classification and labour, it was only ne cessary to quote an instance mentioned in a very excellent pamphlet written by a highly respectable individual, Mr. Gurney of Norwich, who had recently visited the prisons in the North of England and in Scotland. The instance he alluded to related to Manchester and Glasgow, the population of both which was nearly of a similar character. It appeared that with reference to the prison at Glasgow, where an excellent system of classification and labour was acted upon, of those who quitted the prison not more than onethird returned on fresh charges, whilst at Manchester, where a system of that description was not acted upon, the proportion who returned to the prison amounted to two-thirds of those who quitted it, thus making a difference of one third in favour of the system of classification and labour. It was but fair, however, to add, that no exertions had been spared by the magistrates of Manchester to remedy the defects in their prison, and that they were adopting measures for the purpose of, adapting the system of the prison to the view of reforming its inmates. As he had no intention of opposing the motion, he should not take up the time of their lordships, but merely observe, that every consideration of duty towards the population (if he might use the term) of our prisons, so as to render them useful members of society, and still more every consideration of duty to society in general, called upon their lordships to enter into the examination of this subject, with the view of establishing some system of prison discipline, which should be rendered as effective as possible, for the purposes of the reformation of the inmates of prisons. With regard to local jurisdictions, he thought that if they were unable in any case to bear the expense of sufficiently altering their prisons, some regulations should be introduced to send the prisoners from such local jurisdictions to the county prisons, the former paying the expense of their maintenance. The motion was then agreed to. COTTON FACTORIES.] Lord Kenyon said, that in rising to propose the appointment of the committee which, on a former occasion, he had postponed, from a consideration of the thinness of the House, he was glad to see a greater num ber of noble lords present than had on that occasion attended. The question now to be considered was one of the greatest importance. No less than 50,000 individuals were interested in its decision in Manchester and its neighbourhood. One-third of these persons were below sixteen years of age, and consequently were unable to do any thing for their own protection. The noble lord said he had made inquiries, since this subject was last before the House, into the improvements which were then said to be taking place without legislative interference. It had then been stated, that the master spinners were willing to diminish the hours of labour of their own accord. This he had found was not correct generally. Some had indeed reduced the hours of labour at Stockport, as he had heard from the chairman of the meeting of masters in Lancashire; but others not concurring, the former had been obliged to see their object defeated. At Bolton the hours had been shortened, but in Lancashire not a fourth of the factories had made any change, more than three-fourths of them working the children fourteen hours and a-half a-day. With respect to the heat to which these children were exposed, the House would judge of the injury which it must occasion to their health, when he told them, on the report of a magistrate who had particularly examined the factories, that it usually ran between 76 and 80 degrees of Fahrenheit, and sometimes reached to 85. It would be for noble lords to consider whether such a state of things did not call for inquiry and regulation. The children could not be considered as free labourers; for at the early age at which they entered the factories, they could not be their own masters, nor yet could they be protected by the principles of the common law, against the severity of their masters, on account of the similarity between their situation and that of free labourers, in their not being bound for any definite period. Nothing but a legislative enactment could afford them any effectual protection. The noble lord denied that the agitation of the question, involved in the bill of last year, had any connexion with the disturbances at Manchester last autumn. He then went into a history of the act of 1802, and the bill of last session; and contended, that there were sufficient grounds for inquiry, if not for authorizing a measure of regulation. He moved, therefore, That a committee be appointed to inquire into the state and condition of children employed in the cotton factories, and to report thereon to the House. The Lord Chancellor explained what he meant on a former occasion, by saying, that if the children were treated with the cruelty described by the petitioners, they might apply for the protection of the common law. He had not argued against the motion of the noble lord, but had merely stated, that the evils complained of, if they existed to the extent described, came under the provisions of the common law; and that those who inflicted them, ought to be informed that they were exposing themselves to the punishment which it prescribed for such cases of cruelty. He gave no opinion then on the necessity of inquiry, but merely that the offence of overworking children was one indictable at common law. He saw no reason why the master cotton manufacturers and the master chimney-sweepers should have different principles applied to them than were applied to other trades. A general law ought to be passed, if necessary, for the regulation of manufacturers of all kinds; but it might happen that a parti cular law, applicable only to children in one trade, might expose them to greater evils than those from which it was intended to protect them. In a country paper he had seen a feeling description of the hardships to which climbing-boys were subjected; but there was no pity expressed for boys compelled to descend into coalpits at three or four o'clock in the morning. were The Earl of Rosslyn entered into a detailed examination of the question, and argued with great force against the motion, expressing a hope that, though the proposition of the noble mover adopted, the measure which he expected to ground upon it would be resisted. The prayer of the petitions now on the table was not limited to the regulation of the labour of children, but included that of adults. He asked, what would be the consequence of interfering with labour in other cases, so as to fix the rate of wages which, in fact, a limitation of the hours of labour would amount to. The proposed inquiry, if it took place, should be general. He objected to the motion; but so far from considering himself an enemy of the children who were the objects of the proposed inquiry, he reckoned himself their friend; as they were improved in health, number, and comfort by the free disposal |