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expenditure for education in any schools maintained for minority groups as well, if the Federal aid is to continue. Furthermore, the Federal money must be applied to schools for minority groups in proportion to the numbers in the minority group in the total population of the State, else the Federal aid ceases to flow.

These provisions require a substantial effort on the part of each State, and a reasonable concern for the education of all its children, regardless of race or color. A State which makes these reasonable efforts may receive Federal aid to supplement its own revenues so as to insure a safe minimum level of public education everywhere in the United States.

In conclusion perhaps you will permit me to emphasize again my feeling about the uniqueness of our school system and its relations, as I see it, to the uniqueness of our free democratic society.

I think it can be demonstrated that the system of public schools in the United States is something the world has never seen before. I do not refer primarily to the size of the undertaking nor to the fact that for a generation or more we have had universal education (or something approaching it) through the first eight grades. I refer rather to the large numbers of our youth who now go to high school and beyond, and the lack of differentiation in our schooling.

How significant is the latter point is brought out by some recent comments of the United States educational mission which recently returned from a visit to Germany. They found the basic educational system of Germany had been little modified by the Nazis, though the machinery had been captured by them to promote their totalitarian ends. But the fundamental structure of the German school system long before the Nazis reflected a spirit which differed from that which prevails in American schools. It was based on the philosophy of a class structure. It was the antithesis of our system which reflects the spirit of a democracy committed to the idea of equality of opportunity for all.

But let me quote from the report of the mission to which I just referred, the mission which studied the German schools within the American zone of occupation. Speaking of the need for the development of the idea of the school as a primary agency for the democratization of Germany, the commission said:

This concept has not inspired the schools in the past (and they meant the entire past, not just the period of Nazi rule). Very nearly, in fact at the end of the fourth year, the school has hitherto been a dual system, one for the 5 or 10 percent of intellectually, socially, and economically favored who go on to secondary school, university and the professions; the other for the great group who have four years more of tuition-free elementary school and three or more years of vocational training. When he is ten years of age or younger, a child finds himself grouped or classified by factors over which he has no control; such grouping to determine almost inevitably his status throughout life. This system has cultivated attitudes of superiority in one small group and inferiority in the majority of the members of German society, making possible the submission and lack of self-determination upon which authoritarian leadership has thrived.

There is no need for me to point out the fundamental difference between the German educational philosophy thus described and that of the United States. Our public schools are democratic; they are basic to our way of life. To fulfill their position they must be improved and strengthened. This takes public funds. The benefits flow to the entire Nation, thus it is logical that to some degree Federal

funds should flow to the public schools where such money is vitally required. Hence the need for the passage of bill S. 472 which is before you for consideration.

Senator SMITH. Thank you, Doctor.

Senator Thomas, have you any questions of Dr. Conant?
Senator THOMAS. No.

Senator SMITH. Senator Hill?

Senator HILL. Doctor, you have summarized in such strong and comprehensive fashion the arguments in favor of Federal aid that it is not possible to raise any question that you have not covered in your subject. I wonder, however, knowing your many services to our country during the recent war, and of course your deep interest in the development of human resources and also your great interest in scientific research, if you might elaborate a little more on your thoughts as to the relationship between education, particularly in our secondary and elementary schools, and the national security.

Dr. CONANT. Yes; I would be very glad to do that briefly, Senator. This is one aspect of the problem of using our schools effectively as ladders of opportunity or tapping the talent of all varieties in each generation, a point on which I feel very strongly. This is a particular kind of talent, therefore, to which I am directing my remarks; namely, scientific talent.

It is clearly of value to the country in terms of health, medicine, industrial productivity, and the last in terms of national defense, as we stand today. Therefore, if we start from the premise that it would be well for the country to have the maximum development of its latent scientific talent, I can speak to that subject in terms of this bill.

I feel quite sure from the facts available at present that we are not developing in many sections of the country all the latent talent we should. As a matter of fact, I have some rough figures. I do not put too much emphasis on the value of statistics, but I gathered these figures by a study of the young men who are starred in the "American Men of Science". That represents the outstanding leaders in all branches of the sciences who perhaps now would be between the ages of 25 and 40. I broke those down by the State of birth which presumably is the State of education. We cannot be sure of it.

If you do that, you find that the numbers in proportion to population vary enormously from area to area. Roughly speaking, that correlates very well with the amount of money spent per child in attendance in the schools. You can bring it out by just taking the two extremes. I happen to have these figures here. They are not in very good shape so I cannot present them in detail, and they are only good as a rough measure.

If you place the 48 States in order of the amount of money spent per child in attendance in the schools, and then take the first 12 States in that order which spend on an average of $171, you find that there are six of these scientists per million of the population.

If you take the lowest 12 States which spend about $70, you find there are only 1.5, or about a fourth.

Now, you either have to assume that the incidence of the peculiar type of scientific brain differs from section to section in this country, for which there is no evidence, or you have to assume that the difference is the educational system. I think it is the educational system.

So, you can say in these days where science is so much concerned with national defense, that it would pay the country in that term alone to invest Federal money in improving education, just on that one point.

Is that what you had in mind?

Senator HILL. Yes, that is what I had in mind.

Senator SMITH. Do you have comparable figures for other professions?

Dr. CONANT. No, I have not. I would like to get them.

I am in

the process of trying to get them. I would venture the opinion, Senator, that for medicine it would show the same.

Senator SMITH. I should think so too.

Dr. CONANT. I am just in the process of trying to get them.

Senator SMITH. That would be a very interesting study. I think we should like to have it.

I should like to ask one more question if I may.

Senator Green's bill contemplates what might be called a "lift" for all teachers' salaries right across the country on the basis of number of pupils taught. This other bill has a little different slant, although it may have the same ultimate result of raising the floor under the dollar invested per pupil in all the States of the country

Have you any observation to make as to the best way to approach our problem of trying to raise our educational standards?

Dr. CONANT. Well, I have not had the opportunity to study Senator Green's bill, but it would be my impression that I should prefer the bill No. 472 for which I have testified this morning on the basis that I think the money spent by the Federal Government could be spent most effectively in terms of the kind of formula in 472. That is, probably all of them need this lift but some need it much more and you want to spend your money where it will do the most good.

Also, I like the incentive provisions very much in 472, which I think would not be forthcoming in a simple, general, over-all lift.

Senator SMITH. You mean then that possibly the States should not be relieved of any of their responsibility but should be given an incentive to do even more in order to get Federal aid to lift the whole floor?

Dr. CONANT. I feel that very strongly. I think it is a great mistake to relieve the States. I think it is important to supplement in the States where the States cannot do sufficient for education. I think it is important to put the stimulus in front of all the States to do as much as they can. I do not believe we are spending enough local and State money on education in most localities.

Senator GREEN. May I interrupt there? I think there is a wrong assumption.

Senator SMITH. I was going to call on you, Senator Green, in a moment. I have one more thought and then I will be very glad to hear you.

You feel apparently from your support of 472 that if we cannot cover the whole situation all in one bite, the right thing to do is to seek out those points that are weakest in our States and lift them by the formulas of 472?

Dr. CONANT. I do. I feel that very strongly.

Senator SMITH. Now, Senator Green.


Senator GREEN. I did not have any question to ask of Dr. Conant, but I did have of you, sir, if I might.

You seemed to assume that under this S. 81 bill that I sponsored, that the States might reduce the amount that they are already paying. That is contrary to the provisions of the bill itself. It provides that it shall not be reduced less than the previous year in any case. So, it is to supplement the present provisions that each State makes.

Senator SMITH. I did not mean to give the impression that I apparently gave. Possibly I did. I am glad that Senator Green made that explanation. But in your bill, Senator Green, I take it that your increase would be a flat increase per teacher right straight through the Nation, irrespective of what the teacher might be getting in the State at the time.

Senator GREEN. That is correct, and that is to simplify the returns. Senator SMITH. I can see that.

Senator GREEN. It will be a great saving in expense. The Government departments tell how much more work would have to be done, how much more appropriation would have to be made for that work unless it were simplified.

Senator SMITH. I appreciate very much your clarifying the misapprehension that I may have given.

Senator THOMAS. Mr. Chairman, may I come in at this point for just a minute before we leave the subject of effective education? (At this point, Senator Aiken resumed the chair.) Senator AIKEN. Yes, Senator Thomas.

Senator THOMAS. The subject of national defense is one of the problems we have handled throughout the years, and I think we ought to at least say this: Out of every 10 pupils, or out of every 10 persons rather, called under the selective service, 5 were rejected in the whole United States for some reason or other. But in those States where educational standards have been pretty high, we find the acceptance running along the same as has been pointed out for those who go into science. So, in those States where educational standards are highest, as many as 7 out of 10 were accepted, while in those States where educational standards were the lowest, as many as 7 were rejected, and only 3 were able to be accepted.

Now, there are all factors, but the point is that where the educational standard is high, it helps the changing of health factors, the correction of eyes and all of the rest of the things which go into making. a well rounded healthy youth.

Senator AIKEN. Senator Hill?

Senator HILL. Doctor, at our hearings at the last session of Congress, we had a most interesting survey presented to us that had been made by a committee of the United States Chamber of Commerce, showing the relationship between the well being of the individual and his educational attainments.

There were most striking charts and figures to show that where a person had had the opportunity for a good education and had taken advantage of that opportunity, he was so much better off from an economic standpoint. Of course that leads us right into the whole question of the strength of our domestic economy.

I wonder if you care to elaborate a little bit on that?
Have you seen that survey?

Dr. CONANT. I have seen it but I have not had the opportunity to study it. It is a point I should certainly have included in my testimony. I implied it only by saying that we must stay strong as a democracy and the way to do it was to have a sufficiently developed system of public education.

But, I think one can see the relation between the amount of money spent on education in States and some of these aspects of their material well being almost by a superficial look at the whole picture here in the United States. It seems clear that the expenditure of money on education increases the many ways in which the citizens can lead a satisfactory life, and that means many ways of spending money. "Consumer demand" is the phrase generally used, which in turn raises the level of industry and the total national income.

One can see that very convincingly, of course, by contrasting this country with a country which we generally speak of as a backward country with very little education, very little industry or very little national income. The relationship is very clear.

Senator HILL. It is illustrated by the waterfall. To an uneducated person, it was just a beautiful sight, the water coming over the rocks. To the educated person, it was not only that but it was a source of power to be harnessed for the welfare of all the people.

Doctor, I noted with much interest what you said about this matter of Federal control. You have no qualms about that; do you?

Dr. CONANT. Not as regards this bill that I studied or any of the others.

Senator HILL. Does not our whole history of Federal aid show that we can have Federal aid? We have had Federal aid without any Federal interference or without any Federal control?

Dr. CONANT. I think it is possible if the bill is properly drawn. I think this bill is so drawn.

Senator HILL. We have a noteworthy example with reference to land-grant colleges; do we not?

Dr. CONANT. I understand so.

Senator AIKEN. The only control would be to ascertain that the States had spent the required amount of money in each district. I assume that you favor expenditure of a minimum amount in each district. Over here you say that

Furthermore, the Federal money must be applied to schools for minority groups in proportion to the numbers in the minority groups in the total population of the State, else the Federal aid ceases to flow.

Would that not be controlled by the requirement in at least two of these bills that the amount in the floor be spent in each school district? You certainly would not want it taken as an average for the State.

Dr. CONANT. Well, I am not sure. If I am right in bill No. 472 that is not required, is it? May I ask the sponsors?

Senator AIKEN. S. 199

Dr. CONANT. You are quite right. In section D, page 8, there must be an audit. In other words, it comes as an audit, doesn't it? An audit? That is, control only comes in in an audit sense, does it not? Senator AIKEN. We have to guard against the States spending the minimum as a State average and make sure that it spends the minimum floor in each school district, if the minority groups are to

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