calculated to engender and keep alive reli- | Gentleman to the evidence of the Rev. J. gious rancour than such a grievance as Elmes, where he would find it stated as this of Ministers' Money. He hoped, there- the opinion of that rev. gentleman, whose fore, the House would bear with him while authority, he believed, would weigh with he stated some few reasons why he felt the Government, that at the time the tax himself bound by a sense of duty to endea- was created, in the 17th & 18th Charles II., vour to bring this matter to a final and most of the inhabitants and most of the satisfactory adjustment. He, for one, did occupiers of the houses in Limerick were not object to this tax because it pressed on altogether Roman Catholics. But supposone description of occupiers or persons ing that it was right to continue the tax more than another. He objected to it en- from generation to generation upon those tirely on the ground of principle. For the houses which were originally made subject last fifty years the House had, with one to it, how could hon. Members justify the sad exception, legislated in the spirit of imposition of the tax upon property which the principle that no men should suffer re- had since then been built by Roman Castriction-that no one should be mulcted tholics? He knew a district in Cork, for of his property, or deprived of his liberty, instance, where about a dozen Roman because of the religious principles he main- Catholic proprietors had, within the last tained. Now, in this spirit he asked the twenty years, built upwards of a hundred House to look upon the present Motion. houses. Now, would it be fair to make Here was a tax levied upon the occupiers these Catholics to pay the tax, whether as of houses in eight of the principal cities owners or occupiers? He admitted that and corporate towns in Ireland for the sup- places of worship should be kept in a proport of clergymen of the Established per condition; but the noble Lord the Church; and it was a fact susceptible of Member for Bandon (Viscount Bernard) easy proof that a majority of those occu- had represented a state of things which piers were Roman Catholics. There were, rather existed in his own imagination than besides, a large number of them Protestant was susceptible of proof. But he could Dissenters, including a considerable pro- give the noble Lord some facts with reportion of members of the Society of spect to Protestant churches. He (Mr. Friends. Now, from these persons money Maguire) knew several Protestant churches was extorted by the power and obligation in the county of Cork without congregaof the law to maintain clergymen in whose tions. There were four parishes in the faith they did not believe, whose ministry diocese of Cloyne in which the congregathey did not solicit, and with whose per- tion consisted of only three persons, and sons, in many cases, they were unac- that congregation was migratory, lending quainted. Was this fair, or was it not? their assistance sometimes to one parish Surely this must be regarded as a viola- and sometimes to another; such was the tion of the civil and religious liberty which state of human, though not of spiritual, both sides of the House affected to re- destitution, in the district. The proporspect. There was not a Gentleman in that tion of Catholics to Protestants in the city House, or in the United Kingdom, who did of Cork was about six to one; in the city not reverence the many virtues and active of Limerick it was, he believed, seven to benevolence of the Society of Friends, and one; in Kilkenny it was yet larger; and their admirable exertions for the destitute in the city of Waterford it was larger still. poor in Ireland at a time when their bene- What, he asked, could be more galling and volence was most needed; and yet many of irritating to him as a Catholic than to be callthe members of that respectable body in ed upon to pay ministers whose faith he did Ireland were prosecuted from year to year, not believe, however he night respect them had their consciences outraged, and their personally? He thought he might justly property confiscated, in the most shameful regard such an impost as a badge of conand degrading manner, and all for the quest and a brand of civil and religious payment of this odious tax. The right inferiority. It must be remembered, also, hon. Gentleman had represented this as a that there were conscientious men in the tax upon property, and endeavoured to various localities of Ireland who were preshow what he (Mr. Maguire) did not be- vented from voting at municipal elections lieve was historically correct-that at the because they would not pay this tax, pretime of the first imposition of the tax a ferring to have their goods distrained. It majority of the ratepayers were Protes- was not impossible that a measure might tants. He begged to refer the right hon. emanate from the other side of the House

by the maintenance of this tax. A short time since he went, as a member of a deputation, to several of the southern towns of Ireland, with a view of interesting persons in the National Exhibition, which had been so signally successful, and many of those from whom the deputation received the greatest assistance were Protestant

for amending and extending the franchise; | dispensing, with his orthodox hands, the yet, by maintaining this tax, they were ravished flour of the Quaker. It appeared continuing a system which prevented men from the evidence given before the Comwho had the right to do so from managing mittee, that in cases where houses had their local affairs and exercising those fallen into ruin, and had been unoccupied powers which were given them by the law. for periods of eleven, eight, and seven In order to show the effect of continuing years, when they were rebuilt by the such a fretting sore, he might refer to a owners, the whole arrears of Ministers' case which was mentioned by Mr. O'Flynn, Money were extorted from the occupiers. one of the witnesses examined before the Let them put this tax into any form they Committee. It was that of a respectable liked, it would still be odious and offensive. man who had formerly been an extensive His own religious opinions were as strong merchant and farmer, but who had been as those of any man; but at the same time, reduced in circumstances. The collector being anxious for the welfare of the councalled upon him for 17. 7s., three years' try, and that every man in his country arrears of Ministers' Money. The wife should live in amity and kindness with his said they were unable to pay, but the col-neighbour, he must declare that he could lector seized all their furniture and sold it conceive nothing more degrading to reliimmediately. The collector admitted that gion than that clergymen and ministers of the little property which he seized had religion should be placed in the odious and been left by the sheriff as an act of cha-invidious position in which they were placed rity; yet what was left this miserable couple by the charity of the sheriff's officer was torn away from them by the representative of the ministers of religion! He put it to the most ardent supporters of the Established Church what must be the effect of such odious scenes upon a lively and susceptible population? What must be thought of those who were found levy-clergymen. Now, if there ever was a time ing black mail in the name of religion? He had the honour of knowing the Dean of Waterford, the distinguished Protestant Bishop of Limerick, and many other clergymen of the Established Church, who benefited by this tax against their own wish. The Rev. Dr. West, of Dublin, stated also that the clergy of Dublin were anxious to avoid having to fight for their incomes; and the Rev. Mr. Elmes designated the tax not merely as obnoxious, but as exceedingly obnoxious. He might here say a word or two about the mode of seizure and of sale. One of the collectors was asked by the Chairman of the Committee whether he gave notice of the sales, and he replied, No; I give no notice when or where the things are to be sold; the Ministers' Money Act does not require such notice." Wherever it was sold, however, and no matter what sum was realised, the owner of the property had no means of knowing what became of it. A few days before he (Mr. Maguire) left Cork, two sacks of flour were seized from a Quaker in Patrick-street by a flour-dealing collec

If, however, he

when it was necessary that good feeling
should exist between men of all religious
persuasions in Ireland, this was that time.
An industrial movement was now going on
in Ireland; it was becoming more and more
developed every day; and he believed it
might be the means of laying the founda-
tions of local prosperity in many parts of
that country. Protestants, Catholics, and
Quakers united in promoting and patron-
ising this movement, and he asked those
who wished to establish good feeling be-
tween Protestants and Catholics, and to
advance the interests of their country, to
assist in doing away with every cause of
rancour and dissension.
were told that he was to be taxed and
mulcted, because he was a Roman Catholic,
he could not entertain in his heart those
sentiments which Christian men ought to
cherish. He asked the House in the name
of religion, which was dishonoured by this
tax, and in the name of justice, which was
outraged by its imposition upon Catholics,
Presbyterians, and Quakers, not merely to
sanction some temporary change of the
burden from one shoulder to the other, but
to get rid of it altogether, and to give up
the building of a few Protestant churches,
rather than have the principles of the Pro-
2 D

Smith, rt. hon. R. V.

Sullivan, M.

Swift, R.

Thomson, G.

Thornely, T.

Towneley, C.

Villiers, hon. C. P.

Whitbread, S.
Wilkinson, W. A.
Williams, W.

TELLERS.

Fagan, W. T.

Murphy, F. S.

quently, hewever, he added one or two apparently trivial things to the Bill, the effect of which was to prevent its passing that Session. And now he had complicated a simple proposition by adding two others to it-namely, that the period to

The House adjourned at a quarter after elapse between the nomination and the

Seven o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Wednesday, December 1, 1852.

COUNTY ELECTIONS POLLS BILL. Order for Committee read; Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

Poll should be only one day, and between the Poll and declaration one day more. To him (Mr. Miles) these propositions would be an almost insuperable barrier to the passing of the measure. He thought it right, therefore, that the House should perfectly understand what was the actual shape which the noble Lord intended the Bill should assume.

LORD ROBERT GROSVENOR, in reply to the question of the hon. Member for MR. BUCK said, that, as the represen- North Devonshire (Mr. Buck), said, that if tative of a very large agricultural district the Bill were then for the first time intro(Devonshire), he felt that, if the Bill were duced, there might have been some reason passed in its present shape, it would be in that hon. Gentleman's request; but the impossible for his constituency to exercise House would recollect that not only was the franchise without much inconvenience. that not the case, but the Bill was brought It must be evident to every one who was in last Session with the sanction of the acquainted with the county constituencies Government to its principle-that since that the greatest possible difficulty would that time an election had taken placearise from the provisions of the Bill; and and that he had in the late Parliament he now interposed for the purpose of ap- given notice that he should again bring pealing to the noble Lord (Lord R. Gros- forward the measure. It could not be venor), and requesting him to postpone its contended, therefore, that the constituenfurther consideration until after the recess, cies had not had the most ample opporthat hon. Members might have an opportunity of considering it: the hon. Gentletunity of communicating with their con- man would excuse him if he declined to stituents, and ascertaining what were their comply with his request. The hon. Memsentiments upon the subject. If, however, ber for East Somersetshire (Mr. Miles) the noble Lord would not accede to that had desired him (Lord R. Grosvenor) to suggestion, he trusted he would adopt an-state what he really meant to accomplish other course, which he could assure him would meet the concurrence of several Gentlemen on that (the Ministerial) side of the House, and consent to submit the Bill to the consideration of a Select Committee. It was by no means his wish to defeat the Bill; all he desired was that it should be made as satisfactory to the country as it was possible to make it.

MR. MILES said, that, before the noble Lord answered the appeal of his (Mr. Miles's) hon. Friend (Mr. Buck), he trusted he would take into his consideration a point which he (Mr. Miles) thought was a necessary preliminary to the discussion of to-day. It was desirable that the noble Lord should state distinctly to the House what were his intentions in proposing this Bill. In the last Parliament the noble Lord began by confining his measure to the simple proposition that the Poll for Counties should last but one day. Subse

by his Bill. In the first place, then, the Amendment of which he had given notice for limiting to one day the period between the nomination and the Poll having been received with so little favour by the House, it was his intention, as he had stated on a previous occasion, to withdraw it; so that, as far as he himself was concerned, he proposed now simply to limit the duration of the poll to one day instead of two, and to provide that the official declaration should be made the day following the close of the poll instead of the day but one after.

SIR GEORGE PECHELL said, he concurred in the opinion expressed by the noble Lord who had charge of the Bill, that the country had had abundant opportunity to make itself acquainted with the provisions of the measure, and that there was therefore no legitimate excuse for further postponement. He did not believe

any

Polls Bill. 808 that evil result would follow from con- MR. G. BUTT said, he proposed to fining the polling to one day, as in bo- move an instruction to the Committee to roughs. In the borough of Shoreham, insert a clause for shortening the time bewhich was of considerable extent, he between the proclamation and the day of lieved there existed no difficulty in taking election in counties, and between the time the poll in one day. of the receipt of the writ and the election in boroughs. At present county elections took place under the regulations of the Act of 25 Geo. III. (1785). The first duty of the House was to take care that they limited the expenses by every possible means, and also abridged the duration of those seasons of strife, excitement, and dissipation, which were the most crying of the evils attendant upon elections in the present day. He had heard it suggested

MR. PACKE said, he must complain of the haste with which it was endeavoured to pass this Bill through the House, and he thought more time should be allowed for considering its provisions. The principal ground upon which he was opposed to the Bill was, that it would certainly operate as a measure of disfranchisement in the case of a large portion of the county electors, and these of the most important class. The state of the weather during the last fortnight ought to have convinced the House of the great difficulty which would have been experienced in many counties by the electors attempting to come to the poll at all. For these, among other reasons, he should oppose the further progress of the Bill, and move, as an Amend-mitted that for such extraordinary circumment, that it should be committed on that day six months. Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "That to the end of the Question, in order to add the words, this House will, upon this day six months, resolve itself into the said Committee," in-law might be. Considering, then, the imstead thereof.

66

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

MR. DRUMMOND said, he should support the Bill. The whole of the objections which had been urged on that (the Ministerial) side of the House might be obviated by inserting a provision for the establishment of more polling places, and for taking the votes at the houses of the electors in the same manner as was now done at elections of guardians of the poor.

LORD ALEXANDER LENNOX said, that as the hon. and gallant Member for Brighton (Sir G. Pechell) had quoted the borough which he (Lord A. Lennox) had the honour to represent, as an instance that no inconvenience could arise from having only two polling places, and confining the polling to one day, that district being thirty miles long and ten wide, he begged to inform him that the inconvenience was so great, and the complaints so general, that it was his intention to move a clause to the Bill to place the borough of Shoreham upon the same footing as

counties.

and the suggestion was certainly entitled to great weight-that there were circumstances and times in which it might be exceedingly difficult for the electors to get to the poll, and the present season had been instanced by one hon. Gentleman as illustrative of this difficulty; but he sub

stances it was impossible for Parliament to legislate. They must rather decide upon general principles, and legislate for ordinary circumstances, than attempt to provide for the many exceptional cases which would be sure to arise whatever the

So

proved means of communication in the
present day-the variety of changes which
had been effected in society, and the faci-
lities for giving votes-none of which ex-
isted in 1785, the time of passing that
Act, he proposed to limit the period between
the receipt by the sheriff of the writ and
the day of election to ten days, instead of
sixteen; and the period between the pro-
clamation and the official declaration of
the poll to five days, instead of ten.
far as to county elections. With regard
to borough elections, the House was aware
that by the Act 3 & 4 Vict. it was pro-
vided that these should take place within
eight days after the receipt of the precept
by the returning officer, three clear days'
notice being given by him of the time for
holding the election. Now, as he proposed
to alter the law relating to county elections,
it was necessary that he should also pro-
pose to alter the law as to borough elec-
tions, in order that borough and county
elections might not conflict. He proposed,
therefore, to alter the time in respect to
borough elections, so that the election
should be held within six days, instead of
eight, after the receipt of the precept by
the returning officer, he giving two clear